Magnesia with TRIUMPH!

[HoaryCenturion]

Hello there -

Has anyone tried to stage the 190 BC battle using TRIUMPH or GRAND TRIUMPH?

May I ask for your OBs?

Did you draft any special rules or new Battle Cards?

Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Chris

[RogerCooper]

Looking at the Wikipedia article what strikes me is that the OOB described by ancient authors does not fit the battle narrative. The Seleucids supposedly had more than a 2-1 numerical superiority but the battle narrative seems to show roughly equal forces. As our sources are Roman, I would take 30,000 as reasonable figure for the Roman forces but I would cut the Seleucid forces to 40,000 to 50,000.

For converting historical battles, I assume that unit of infantry has twice as many people as a unit of cavalry. I could probably draw up a detailed force list if you want.

I don't see much special happening in the battle except the Roman seemed to perform better. Perhaps a +1 to Roman command rolls

[Rod]

This is on my list to do as part of my current painting project, but I have not gotten to an OOB yet.

I would start with roughly equal force sizes though.

[RogerCooper]

Here is my OOB for Grand Triumph, with a scale each unit being 1000 infantry or 500 cavalry. I have a minimum of 1 unit of each named contingent and a 40% reduction of the Seleucid army

Romans
22 x Elite Foot (Roman Legions)
7 x Javelin Cavalry (Roman Cavalry)
2 x Javelin Cavalry (Pergamene Cavalry)
2 x Light Foot (Achaeans)
2 x Light Foot (Pergamene)
1 x Light Foot (Thracians)
1 x Skirmishers (Cretan Archers)
1 x Skirmishers (Illyrian Archers)
1 x Pike (Macedonians)
1 x Elephant (-1 in close combat)
1 x Light Spear (Pergamene)

Seleucids
1 x Skirmishers (Cyrtian Slingers)
2 x Skirmishers (Cretans)
2 x Skirmishers (Mysian Archers)
4 x Skirmishers (Psiloi)
1 x Archers (Elymaean Archers)
2 x Light Foot (Peltasts)
3 x Light Foot (Illyrians)
1 x Light Foot (Carians)
1 x Light Foot (Cilicians)
2 x Light Foot
3 x Javelin Cavalry (Galatians)
1 x Javelin Cavalry (Tarentines)
1 x Knights (Royal Cavalry)
1 x Knights (Agema)
7 x Cataphracts
1 x Elephant
10 x Pikes (Phalanx)
1 x Warriors (Galatians)
1 x Warriors (Atians)
1 x Elite Foot (Argyraspides)
1 x Horse Archers (Dahae Horse Archers)
1 x Battle Taxi (Scythed Chariots)
1 x Bad Horse (Arab Camel Archers)
4 x Horde (Camp Guards)

1. The battlefield was fairly open
2. Both sides fought hard in this battle and an organized retreat occurred. 24 points of losses are required for a defeat
3. The Romans were well-coordinated. +1 to command die rolls
4. Both sides had fortified camps
5. Roman Elephants were inferior in numbers and quality. They are -1 in close combat and cost only 3
6. Seleucids were never able to deploy their Scythed Chariots for attack so they are considered Battle Taxis

[RogerCooper]

I create a Google Spreadsheet which you can use the test different assumptions. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing.

I thought that the sources probably omitted Pergamene close order infantry on the right flank as it seems strange to have a right flank composed entirely of light troops and cavalry, so added 10,000 spearmen. This allowed me to reduce the adjustment of the Seleucids down to only 30%.

This spreadsheet could be easily modified for other battles.

[HoaryCenturion]

Hello Roger,

Sorry for the delay. I have been occupied with refighting a sort of Magnesia using modified Tactica II. I hope to have it posted to my blog by the end of the month.
Thanks very much for your replies and suggested order of battle. I will take some time to look this over and think about a rematch, of a sorts.

Cheers,
Chris

[RogerCooper]

I actually tried to refight the battle on the Seleucid left. I wasn't able to replicate the historical results. The way that the attack on the scythed chariots and the Arab camel archers disorganized the Seleucid cataphracts simply does not work. Even with the chariots and camels destroyed the Seleucids should have been able to reorganize.

I don't think the problem here is Triumph. Either the Seleucids had poor generalship or the Roman/Pergamene forces had superior numbers. I had already reduced the Seleucid strength by 30% and added a bunch of spearmen to the Pergamenes, but it probably was not enough.

I will post a printable file of all the units. They are somewhat stronger than standard Triumph allows, but you can always choose 48 points of units to fight a standard battle. Most of the counters have some illustration on them. I print them out using card stock.

[RogerCooper]

The link for the Battle of Magnesia file is https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Pt1Acc ... sp=sharing