Orcs as Warband

[Bill Hupp]

DK,

I'm in the middle of basing the 3rd Vendel Goblin/Orc army.

In your notes on LOTR army lists, you don't have any spot on the Goblin list for Warband. However later, in the same thread you mention that:

Regular fierce orcs are best represented as Warband.

Since you have noted that 'orcs are bigger goblins' (I concur), would you mind commenting on the minimum-maximum number of Warband - fierce Goblins/Orcs that might be in a standard 48 point army?

Thanks.

Bill

[David Kuijt]

DK,

I'm in the middle of basing the 3rd Vendel Goblin/Orc army.

In your notes on LOTR army lists, you don't have any spot on the Goblin list for Warband. However later, in the same thread you mention that:

Regular fierce orcs are best represented as Warband.

Since you have noted that 'orcs are bigger goblins' (I concur), would you mind commenting on the minimum-maximum number of Warband - fierce Goblins/Orcs that might be in a standard 48 point army?

Thanks.

Bill

Not sure I understand your question, Bill.

[Bill Hupp]

Sorry if that was too abbreviated.

This is from your posting before:

So here's the initial draft of the Goblin list, covering all independent goblin and orc tribes after the first age. This is not the Mordor or Dol Guldur list under Sauron; this list would be good for the Dwarven-Goblin war (Azanulbizar), or for the Battle of the Five Armies, or for the Goblin forces attacking from the Misty Mountains against Lorien or Imladris at the end of the Third Age (War of the Ring).

Goblin Tribes. Invasion 3, Maneuver 3 (due to their bad-going ambushy tactics, the rarity of them being caught in a battlefield they didn't want, their common tactic of flank marching a force as in the Battle of the Five Armies, etc.) Hilly topography.

General: Raider or Archer
1-2x Raider Goblin guards in mail; man-sized and vicious
1-4x (Beasts? Horsebow? Javelin Cavalry?) Wolf-riding goblins (THIS BECOMES JAV CAV BELOW)
0-1x Archer Elite bow-armed goblins with mail and spear
0-4x Bow Levy or Skirmisher Bowmen, possibly some in formed units
4-8x Skirmisher skirmishing bow-armed goblins
0-8x Light Foot Large goblins, nearly the size of a man
6-16x Rabble Goblin foot
0-6x Horde Goblin foot formed in close order units, often unwilling, mustered by whip-wielding officers
0-2x (Elephants? Elite Foot?) Trolls (THIS APPEARS TO STILL BE A CHOICE OR OPEN ITEM)
Allies:
Wild Wargs (under their own Warg commanders, with their own language. Same rating problem as the wolf riding goblins above.
Dwarves (but not the tribe of Durin)

Then to bring a later comment together in one place, but all from the same thread.

Goblin forces from the Misty Mountains, Mount Gundabad, etc.

Here are some thoughts about representing Goblin armies in Tolkien. Note that goblin and orc are synonymous in Tolkien -- orcs are bigger goblins, but he uses both words for the same guys. No racial difference. And not green. You wanna do a Warhammer Goblin/Orc army, more power to you, but in Tolkien they are not green.

Note that these writeups use a draft version of battle cards for Fantasy Triumph. Neither the point costs of those battle cards nor the exact rules are finalized yet.

-Elite armored goblins are Raiders. The bodyguard of Bolg in the Battle of the Five Armies is differentiated as much better than rank and file goblins. Most goblin armies should have the General's stand as Raiders, and maybe 0-2 more such.
-Regular fierce orcs are best represented as Warband.
-Rank and file goblins (again, that just means smaller, less fierce orcs) are Rabble
In Goblin armies that face human mounted forces a lot, grouping archer goblins and orcs together into Bow Levy is reasonable. Even there, the Rabble should outnumber the Bow Levy.
-Wargs, whether ridden by goblins, unridden, or mixed, should be represented as Javelin Cavalry with the following battle cards:
Slow (6mu move instead of 8mu) Woodland Creatures (treat woods as open terrain and wooded hills as gentle hills, for combat and movement only)
Fierce (follow up on a win like Knights; cannot disengage)

My question is related to including in the list with min and max for "Regular fierce orcs are best represented as Warband.".

Is this a new line item, Warband, for the original list above?

Thanks.

Bill

[Bill Hupp]

The Orc list above has a LOT of required troops (32 points) and lots of options for the last 16 points.

Below are some in process pictures of the gathering hordes (Rabble technially)

The 32 points of required units (1x Raider General, 1x Jav Cav Wolf riders, 6 x Rabble, 4 x Skirmishers.

Orcs - 1.jpg (29.11 KiB) Viewed 5921 times

Remaing 16 points 2 x Raider and 2 x Jay Cav Wold Riders

Orcs - 2.jpg (25.47 KiB) Viewed 5921 times

[Rod]

I would mod the list thusly:

General: Raider or Archer
1-2x Raider Goblin guards in mail; man-sized and vicious
0-4 Warband; fierce Goblins
1-4x (Beasts? Horsebow? Javelin Cavalry?) Wolf-riding goblins (THIS BECOMES JAV CAV BELOW)
0-1x Archer Elite bow-armed goblins with mail and spear
0-4x Bow Levy or Skirmisher Bowmen, possibly some in formed units
4-8x Skirmisher skirmishing bow-armed goblins
0-8x Light Foot Large goblins, nearly the size of a man
6-16x Rabble Goblin foot
0-6x Horde Goblin foot formed in close order units, often unwilling, mustered by whip-wielding officers
0-2x (Elephants? Elite Foot?) Trolls (THIS APPEARS TO STILL BE A CHOICE OR OPEN ITEM)
Allies:
Wild Wargs (under their own Warg commanders, with their own language. Same rating problem as the wolf riding goblins above.
Dwarves (but not the tribe of Durin)

[Bill Hupp]

Yes, that is a possible modification from my question about the subsequent language on warband in the thread.

It's the paragraph below from the old DBM army list that raises the question of whether there should be any warband at all for orcs.

Bill

Why aren't Orcs Wb?
People just keep asking me. Well, because in Tolkien, goblins/Orcs do not engage in an 'impetuous and ferocious collective charge to sweep away enemy foot' that the rules demand troops classified as Wb do. They just aren't brave, willing, or even plain large enough to do it. See the Goblins army list notes for more on this, and also the passage (UT, 362) describing how Goblins are unsuited to fighting shield-walls, which in DBM Wb are the ideal troop for!
(Middle-Earth Army Lists for DBM by Luke Ueda-Sarson)

[David Kuijt]

Bill, I still have no idea to what you are referring.

What thread? From when? You seem to be quoting me, as well as other people, but I'm unsure what position you are taking or what issue you want to discuss.

I sent you draft army lists for Tolkein forces a few weeks ago. If that's what you're using as the basis for your questions, you need to do that in private email -- if I was ready to release those army lists in public I would have done so already. There are legal issues involved, and the Tolkein estate is very litigious.

[Bill Hupp]

David,

Everything is here in the Forum. LOTR Army Lists for TRIUMPH! is the title of the discussion where I am quoting you from. One is an earlier post and the other a later one.

I don't think I have any draft army lists from you via email, only what is from that discussion here on the Forum.

I am asking specifically about the original list you posted on 1-14-17 and then the follow up general notes you posted on 1-19-19. In the later post you stated in one of the bullet points: "Regular fierce orcs are best represented as Warband." I was just wondering if that modified the 1-14-17 list and if so how.

That's obviously a while ago now, so I can understand your confusion over my question. I did not go back to the original thread as it was very broad and this was a very specific question.

Bill

[David Kuijt]

At the moment I like the representation of the best armored and motivated orcs as Raiders, some Warband, and the rest as Rabble. I went that way with the Battle of the Five Armies scenario I ran at Historicon. No more than one or two stands of Raiders. Proportions something like 1-8-10. Possibly with one stand of Wargs thrown in (JavCav with the battle cards for Woodland Creatures and Slow and Fierce). An elite army (Azog's command) might be 2-6-6-2 with 2 Warg stands. A very Warg-heavy army might be 0-6-6-4.

• Woodland Creatures: ignores combat and movement impact of Woods. Treats Wooded Hills as regular Hills.
• Slow: moves 6mu (normally 8mu)
• Fierce: must follow up on victory. May not disengage from combat even if faster.

Under Sauron I also support some heavily-armored close-order orcs. Heavy Foot for armored orcs from the Morannon or similar, Elite Foot for Uruk-hai. Uruk-hai also can be Raiders. In both cases no more than one or two stands of Uruk-hai -- the army should be big, bigger than most Westron armies, and the way to achieve that is to have lots of cheap stands (Rabble). When you're fighting under Sauron, who is more of a motivator for orcs to fight in groups in the open (by providing whipmasters and cadre poking the front ranks forward with spears), some elements of Horde are also fun. It's cool to take a bunch of small goblins (who normally you base as Rabble) and put them on a big base with one or two big orcs in the rear (not the front!) pushing them forward as Horde.

Is any of this official? No. I'm not going to put more intellectual effort into it until maybe this summer. I need to reexamine my Pelennor Field scenario and my Battle of the Five Armies scenario. And get a bigger car, so I can transport them to conventions more easily.

[Bill Hupp]

Thanks David. Just what I was looking for, except that I’d headed down the skirmisher/rabble path so heavily, I’m short on warbands. But as you say, it’s whatever we want in the end. It’s the warbands vs. elite dwarves that I am most concerned about in terms of play balance.

Hordes are so immobile, I made my rabbles with 4 small guys and a big guy for encouragement. Sassanid infantry fought as hordes and the infantry were chained together to encourage them.

Bill