mesoamericans

[vodnik]

...currently i play much preparation games for a native American tournament in Munich in the end of march. The armies are DBMM 240AP. I use an Aztec army. My opponent has a Chichimeca army. So i like to use that army for Triumph:

...miniatures are mostly from Khurasan painted by Timurilank:

[David Schlanger]

Looks very nice... I am glad to see someone using the mesoamerican lists for some games!

DS

[vodnik]

...i would like using north American armies too but there are no lists.

[Rod]

The reason Meshwesh is online is because it is meant to be a living document. We have already had some fan based discussion to modify lists.

All my respects to DK (and the guys), there must be at least two or three armies from history (maybe even four) he does not know much about or has little to no source material from which to create a list.

So what I am trying to say is, if you got something to go on, please share it. If there is a particular list you are interested in see if you can dig up enough reference material to create a reasonable list and make a proposal.

[Andreas Johansson]

Seems to me there already are a bunch of North American lists - the Eastern Forest one, the Mound Builder one, three Pacific ones, and a North-Western American one I rather wonder how it relates to the Pacific ones.

[vodnik]

...the North-Western American list is with no entries...

[Andreas Johansson]

I can't see entries in any list right now, so Meshwesh seems to be having issues.

I missed the Columbia Basin Nations and Interior Plateau Nations lists y'dy.

[Rod]

You guys have looked under the New World Thematic category, right?

http://meshwesh.wgcwar.com/thematicCate ... 14/explore

Where lists say unknown, see my comments above, it means nobody has submitted anything we can use to justify a list. If you have any info, feel free to share.

[Andreas Johansson]

You also have a North American thematic category with the following lists:

Mound Builder American 1100 to 1701 AD
Eastern Forest American 1100 to 1701 AD
North-Western American 1100 to 1770 AD
Northern Maritime Pacific North American 1100 to 1770 AD
Central and Southern Maritime Pacific North American 1100 to 1770 AD
Coastal Mountain Pacific North American 1100 to 1770 AD
Columbia Basin Nations 1100 to 1770 AD
Interior Plateau Nations 1100 to 1770 AD

Only the first two have troop options entered, but when I was looing at them on Friday Meshwesh was having issues and I got "data cannot be retrieved" for all lists, North American and otherwise.

All I know about the North-Western types militarily speaking is derived from the WRG lists, so I'm not going to be much help there.

[David Kuijt]

You also have a North American thematic category with the following lists:

<list listing elided>

All I know about the North-Western types militarily speaking is derived from the WRG lists, so I'm not going to be much help there.

I've got a bunch of work into those army lists. I've got invasion ratings, geographic locations, maneuver ratings, and so on. In some cases I've got some inkling of how some of their troops fought. But development of those lists has stalled due to a combination of other priorities (development of the physical rulebook, battle cards, fantasy triumph, other things) and lack of information. Plus some bizarre stuff -- some of the NW Coastal Indian cultures fought their wars wearing hollowed-out wooden buckets on their heads, with eyeslits. How do you rate that? No, I'm not asking for suggestions -- I'm characterizing the complexity of some of the issues.

Archaeology in PNW Indian cultures has significantly advanced in the last twenty years; I have every hope that eventually enough information will arise to allow reasonable army lists. But don't hold your breath, it won't be tomorrow.

There are other gaps -- for example, the Wari and Tiwanaku cultures in the Middle Horizon period in South America (500 -- 1000 CE). We know where they were located. We know they fought each other. We know they were more than big enough to be represented -- each of them were large -- half the size of the Inca that replaced them after a gap of 400 years or more in the Late Horizon period. I can prepare maps, invasion ratings, maneuver ratings, start and end dates, and even some battle cards. But we have no surviving artifacts of war, no paintings of warfare or warriors, no literary records, nothing that would give us an idea of how they fought and what their army might have looked like. Until we get some of that, any army list would be completely speculative.

Other gaps will eventually be overcome. The Indian Subcontinent during the Classical through Medieval period was very complex, with as many cultures and languages and empires as Western Europe, and a similar size and population as well. And we have just a bare few army lists to represent them. Where is the Vijayanagar army list? The Maratha? Gujarat? Bahmani Empire? At the moment we don't know enough to separate them out.