Medieval French

A place to talk about MESHWESH army lists
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Delphin
Levy
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:12 pm

Medieval French

Post by Delphin » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:41 pm

I'm going convert my DBA army into Triumph! format, so have some questions.

Why Genoese crossbowmens are archers, not pavisers? As far as I know, they used pavises. Furthermore, description of the troop type contains Italian Medieval pavisiers as example. Isn't Genoa an Italian city? :D
Secondly, which battle cards can be used for this army? Does exist some battle cards list at all?

Thanks!
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David Schlanger
Grand Master WGC
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Re: Medieval French

Post by David Schlanger » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:28 pm

Hi - which Meshwesh army list are you specifically referring to? Early Italian Condotta, Later Italian Condotta, Genoese Condotta in Cyprus, something else?

The Battle Cards associated with each army list will be visible on Meshwesh - hopefully soon!

DS
Delphin wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:41 pm
I'm going convert my DBA army into Triumph! format, so have some questions.

Why Genoese crossbowmens are archers, not pavisers? As far as I know, they used pavises. Furthermore, description of the troop type contains Italian Medieval pavisiers as example. Isn't Genoa an Italian city? :D
Secondly, which battle cards can be used for this army? Does exist some battle cards list at all?

Thanks!
Delphin
Levy
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:12 pm

Re: Medieval French

Post by Delphin » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:15 pm

David Schlanger wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:28 pm
Hi - which Meshwesh army list are you specifically referring to? Early Italian Condotta, Later Italian Condotta, Genoese Condotta in Cyprus, something else?
Medieval French 1347 AD to 1445 AD (http://meshwesh.wgcwar.com/armyList/5b3 ... a7/explore)
Third line above - Archers (Genoese crossbowmen)

Besides being surprised at this unintuitive fact, I'm a little disappointed that this crossbowmens are completely similar to England longbowmans, while historical they was very different: small amount of professional solders with hi-tech weapon vs large number of yesterday's peasants.

Maybe I'm mistaken, in this case, please explain what exactly.
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David Kuijt
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Re: Medieval French

Post by David Kuijt » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:37 pm

Delphin wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:41 pm
I'm going convert my DBA army into Triumph! format, so have some questions.

Why Genoese crossbowmens are archers, not pavisers? As far as I know, they used pavises. Furthermore, description of the troop type contains Italian Medieval pavisiers as example. Isn't Genoa an Italian city? :D
Secondly, which battle cards can be used for this army? Does exist some battle cards list at all?
Genoese Crossbowmen fighting as mercenaries in the army of France did not fight the same way as the large formations rated as Pavisiers in the armies of continental Italy.

Battle Cards for Medieval French 1347-1445 are:
  • Deployment Dismounting (as Elite Foot) for all Knights
  • Mobile Infantry for 0-1 stands of Bow Levy
  • Mobile Infantry for 0-1 stands of Voulgiers (Heavy Foot used 1401-1429)
You wrote:
Besides being surprised at this unintuitive fact, I'm a little disappointed that this crossbowmens are completely similar to England longbowmans, while historical they was very different: small amount of professional solders with hi-tech weapon vs large number of yesterday's peasants.
The major difference between crossbows and longbows was that it was easier to train crossbowmen than longbowmen -- characterizing them as "high-tech" weapons is inaccurate. Crossbows existed back in Roman times, for example by the Picts.

Further, we rate troop types based upon perceived performance. Good mercenary crossbowmen like the Genoese employed by France were used in battle much like the English longbowmen they faced, and were definitely not perceived as "better" or "more professional" in primary source documents. In fact, quite the reverse -- from Crecy to the 16th century, the English Longbowmen was considered by most commentators as much more effective than any group of crossbowmen, however professional and high-tech. So you should be complaining the other way! :)
DK
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Andreas Johansson
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Re: Medieval French

Post by Andreas Johansson » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:45 pm

In their most famous outing at Crécy 1346, the Genoese crossbowmen fought without their pavises.

But anyway, perhaps somewhat counterintuitively, having a pavise isn't sufficient for classification as Pavisiers - you're also supposed to have (a) front rank(s) with close combat weapons likes spears or pikes.The Genoese thus shouldn't be so classed even when they did have their pavises.

Regarding professionalism, the yeoman class from which most longbowmen were recruited may be considered a prosperous type of peasants, the ones who served in France routinely did so for years on end, and became professionals for all practical purposes.
Delphin
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Re: Medieval French

Post by Delphin » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:16 am

I'm not trying to say that someone was better or worse, I just say that they were different. I was upset by the lack of differences in the DBA and I hoped to see them here. :)

Absense of pavises in Cresy was accidental and not typical for this troops. In next famous battle, Poitiers, they fought with pavises.

But overall, I got the answer to the question, thanks :)
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David Kuijt
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Re: Medieval French

Post by David Kuijt » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:48 am

Delphin wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:16 am
I'm not trying to say that someone was better or worse, I just say that they were different. I was upset by the lack of differences in the DBA and I hoped to see them here. :)
There are more differences than DBA, but Triumph (like DBA) is a fast-play game with a limited number of buckets for troops; when designing it we saw no good reason to differentiate between troops armed with bows and troops armed with crossbows. We did find cases where both/either were effective (rated as Archers) and were poor (rated as Bow Levy) and fought as skirmishers (rated as Skirmishers, strangely enough) and fought behind a line or so of protective foot troops (rated as Pavisiers) -- but all of those exist with bows, and all of those exist with crossbows.

When the Battle Cards rules come out those will differentiate a bit more (provide special rules tied to particular armies) but that still won't change the game significantly -- the number of battle cards available to most armies is small, and restricted by (our understanding of) historical usage.
DK
Rod
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Re: Medieval French

Post by Rod » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:39 pm

To add to that, I sometimes modify the Meswesh army list for historical battles if I think the particular battle calls for it.

For Hastings I tweaked the number of skirmishers in Willliam's army. Also I made a special rule for the Saxon Heavy foot taking extra command pips to pull back up the hill.

For the Battle of Hattin, DK suggested using 3 point Archers "with out long rang fire ability" to represent the "exhausted" foot troops of the crusaders not being able to effective repel the Horsebow and Javelin Cavalry. It not only created a better result for that particular battle, it made it a much more enjoyable game for both sides.
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