one Alan list

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vodnik
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one Alan list

Post by vodnik » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:56 am

... migration era and medieval Alan use the same list except the home topography,why not a single list?
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David Kuijt
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Re: one Alan list

Post by David Kuijt » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:17 am

vodnik wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:56 am
... migration era and medieval Alan use the same list except the home topography,why not a single list?
  • The figures you would use for those two armies (representing their appearance) should be completely different.
  • The enemies list is completely different.
  • The thematic categories is completely different.
  • The allies list is completely different.
  • Their maneuver rating is different.
  • The home topography is different.
  • The armies are not the same -- the "axemen" are Warband in the early list and Heavy Foot in the later list.
  • They are split from each other in history by several hundred years of Khazar domination of their homeland in the Caucasus
So let me flip your question on its head -- why would you think those two armies should be represented by a single list?

The Alan are one of the cultures where we have very little information, and the information is spread in teensy bits here and there across several thousand years of history. They evolve from just another Sarmatian tribe, through a tribe that actively participated in much of the interesting conquest and warfare of the migration period, until their culture and kingdoms in the West are subsumed into the Vandals and Merovingians and possibly inform the rise of the Bretons; back in their original home they are conquered by the Khazars and only appear two or three hundred years later as the Khazar empire devolves and eventually collapses. To use data from the Byzantine descriptions of their interaction with the Catalan Company in 1305 AD (based upon the culture in the Caucasus that eventually was revealed after the fall of the Khazar Empire) and apply it to the Migration period culture a thousand and more years earlier that fought their way across Europe to settle in the west is frighteningly tenuous. There is a real possibility that archaeological information will arise at some point in the future that will allow further differentiation of the two pieces of Alan history; having the Alans as two separate units right now will set us up better for potential future information that might be discovered.

The Alans are 1500 years of culture and warfare split both chronologically and geographically by a single interregnum. If we (the list makers) had more information I could see us as having split it into three pieces -- the Sarmatian period (50 AD to 300-350 AD), the Migration period (attacking the West; wandering around with the Asding Vandals and lots of other guys, fighting in the battles of Adrianople and Chalons, etc. etc.), and the Medieval (post-Khazar) period. But we don't, at least not now.

Hope this helps you understand our thinking.
DK
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Re: one Alan list

Post by vodnik » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:59 am

...there are not many facts of Alans as a Sarmatian tribe but there is for example Marcellinus Ammianus a late Roman soldier and history writer. There is also Lucius Flavius Arrianus; as in my earlier post: Sarmatian & Alan. An Alan contigent did fight in the battle of Adrianople 378. Vandals, Alans & Suebi cross the Rhine 406 entered Gaul. In 451 An Alan contingent taught in the Battle at the Catalaunian fields. In Spain there was a short living Alan kingdom. Together with the Vandals the Allans move 429 to Africa. Gaiseric become king Vandalorum et Alanorum. After the death of Attila Alans served in Constantinople. Other Alans setllet in Caucasus and become Ossetians...
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David Kuijt
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Re: one Alan list

Post by David Kuijt » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:49 am

vodnik wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:59 am
...there are not many facts of Alans as a Sarmatian tribe but there is for example Marcellinus Ammianus a late Roman soldier and history writer. There is also Lucius Flavius Arrianus; as in my earlier post: Sarmatian & Alan. An Alan contigent did fight in the battle of Adrianople 378. Vandals, Alans & Suebi cross the Rhine 406 entered Gaul. In 451 An Alan contingent taught in the Battle at the Catalaunian fields. In Spain there was a short living Alan kingdom. Together with the Vandals the Allans move 429 to Africa. Gaiseric become king Vandalorum et Alanorum. After the death of Attila Alans served in Constantinople. Other Alans setllet in Caucasus and become Ossetians...
Yup. Although it isn't clear if the Alans settled in the Caucasus, or if they originated there. They were still there when they emerged from the shadow of Khazar hegemony, 400 or so years after disappearing from the historical record in the west.
DK
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