Camps

Anything else related to the TRIUMPH! rules
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Bill Hupp
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Camps

Postby Bill Hupp » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:26 pm

Teaching and playing Triumph! with experienced gamers new to the 'ancients' world has raised a number of questions I have not been able to answer completely. As an example, I have been asked why camps are important, what they represent, and isn't 50% of the victory conditions (more than that if it is guarded with a stand) a but much considering the point of fighting the battle/game?

I explained that camps in ancient and medieval times could be important to morale and that they abstractly represent supply lines and lines of retreat. One of my regular opponents, who I regularly terrorize and beat by taking his camp, seems a bit put off by the camps being worth so much. I've even thought of making it a variable point amount to make it more of a gamble to spend your command points on vs. being fixed.

What else would you say the camps represents? Does anyone else think the points for it might be a bit high? Should it be for example only 4 points, the same as the most costly element? or 6, 1.5x?

Bill
Bill Hupp
Thistle & Rose Miniatures
I play lots of games and I like Triumph!

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David Kuijt
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Re: Camps

Postby David Kuijt » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:44 am

Bill Hupp wrote:Teaching and playing Triumph! with experienced gamers new to the 'ancients' world has raised a number of questions I have not been able to answer completely. As an example, I have been asked why camps are important, what they represent, and isn't 50% of the victory conditions (more than that if it is guarded with a stand) a but much considering the point of fighting the battle/game?

I explained that camps in ancient and medieval times could be important to morale and that they abstractly represent supply lines and lines of retreat. One of my regular opponents, who I regularly terrorize and beat by taking his camp, seems a bit put off by the camps being worth so much. I've even thought of making it a variable point amount to make it more of a gamble to spend your command points on vs. being fixed.

What else would you say the camps represents? Does anyone else think the points for it might be a bit high? Should it be for example only 4 points, the same as the most costly element? or 6, 1.5x?


This is another case where "experienced gamers new to ancients" might be generalizing based upon Civil War, RevWar Nappies, or some other thing. In other words, where a bit of reading historical accounts of ancients battles would stand them in good stead.

Camps are very important in a large number of historical accounts of battles. Alexander the Great nearly lost Gaugamela because he lost his camp when his left flank failed. Zillions of other examples exist.

The camp represents the camp. If your other-periods players don't understand why that is important, that's a good occasion to encourage them to read historical accounts of battles. They don't represent lines of supply and retreat -- most Medieval and Ancient generals supplied their army by looting, not with any sort of supply train.

For rank and file soldiers, everything they own is either on their body or in the camp. For example, the following is from Wikipedia on Eumenes, one of Alexander the Great's generals. He won two close battles in a row, but lost his camp, and his enemy Antigonos Monopthalmos got his best soldiers to turn him over in exchange for returning their camp loot.
According to Plutarch and Diodorus, Eumenes had won the battle but lost control of his army's baggage camp thanks to his ally Peucestas' duplicity or incompetence. This baggage also included all the loot of the most decorated Macedonian veterans (called the Argyraspides, or Silver Shields)—treasure accumulated over 30 years of successful warfare. It contained not only gold and gems but the soldiers' women and children. Antigonus responded to a request for the return of the baggage train sent by Teutamus, one of their commanders, by demanding they give him Eumenes. The Silver Shields did just that.


Hope this clarifies some things for you!
DK

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Bill Hupp
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Re: Camps

Postby Bill Hupp » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:59 pm

DK,

Right, I did explain it to them as noted and they get it, it's really important. I was looking more for clariication of the game decision about points towards victory. Their question was more about victory conditions and proportion to victory.

So how important? Carry over from legacy systems or with the garrison it makes sense for it to be +50% of victory?

Bill
Bill Hupp
Thistle & Rose Miniatures
I play lots of games and I like Triumph!

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David Kuijt
Grand Master WGC
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: MD suburbs of Washington DC

Re: Camps

Postby David Kuijt » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:21 am

Bill Hupp wrote:Right, I did explain it to them as noted and they get it, it's really important. I was looking more for clariication of the game decision about points towards victory. Their question was more about victory conditions and proportion to victory.

So how important? Carry over from legacy systems or with the garrison it makes sense for it to be +50% of victory?


How could it be less? There are some battles where the battle description seems to indicate that a camp should be worth 100% of victory. Of course, there are others where a lost camp does not lose the battle at that instant, so 100% is too much.

I repeat, if they are asking about proportion to victory and victory conditions, and they think that camps are too valuable, then I don't think they understand how valuable camps were in the eras before gunpowder and large state-built armies with supply trains. I wasn't saying that they should understand how valuable camps are in the game, I'm saying they should read more to understand how valuable camps were in history.
DK


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