WOTR Yorkist Army Question

[coopman]

It appears that if a player wanted to field a Yorkist Army (not Richard) based on the current army list, he/she would be limited to the following 13 stands of troops:
2 knights/heavy foot
1 jav. cav.
2 elite foot
4 archers
2 light spear
1 skirmisher
1 artillery

Is this correct or am I missing something? Thanks.

[David Kuijt]

The main thing you're missing is Allies.

Bear with me, as this is a complex explanation.

Some army lists are structured to have "internal" allies. For example, any War of the Roses army may take Shire levy -- or they may not take any Shire levy. If they take Shire levy they get an additional 0-1x Heavy Foot (Shire levy billmen) and 1-6x Archer (Shire levy bowmen). There are also Northern Border troops as an internal ally, available to Lancaster or to R3; they are 0-1x Javelin Cavalry (Northern border staves) and 1-2x Heavy Foot (Northern border foot).

Internal allies allow us to avoid mostly-replicated army lists. For example, "Skythian all-mounted" and "Skythian with crappy tribal foot", which would cover the same period and locations but be different army lists -- with internal allies (the crappy tribal foot) we can avoid that and just have one Skythian list. Same for the Jewish Revolts list, who might be fielded with or without a Zealot contingent. It's even worse when there are multiple internal allies -- for the War of the Roses English there would be "No Internals", "N.Borders", "Shire Levy", "Both N.Borders and Shire Levy" -- four army lists all covering the same time and period and culture and commanders.

What does this mean for you? Just wait a week or two. We are working on the coding to support all the allies in the army lists -- the allies themselves have existed for a year or two in the database, we just haven't shown them in Meshwesh yet. All the allies should be visible as soon as we have the coding in place; very likely before the end of the year.

There will also be some minor changes to the rules to support and explain how allies are used. Internal allies (since they represent a major contingent of native troops that are, as a unit, added or not-added to the army) don't need any special rules, they just become part of the army.

Hope this is clear.

Oh, and the allies will also allow a huge raft more variety with external (normal) allies -- like Roman allies fielded by Ancient British armies from 51 AD to 69 AD (1-2x Elite Foot legionaries and 1-2x Raider auxiliaries).

[David Kuijt]

2 knights/heavy foot

Minor correction: the men-at-arms dismount as Elite Foot, not Heavy Foot.

[coopman]

Thanks David. I appreciate the explanation and will wait to see the expanded lists.

[David Kuijt]

If you're working on a Yorkist (not R3) army, the stands I mentioned for Shire Levy will give you the additional options. If you take the Shire Levy you get:

• 0-1x Heavy Foot (Shire Levy billmen)
• 1-6x Archer (Shire Levy bowmen)

All in addition to the other troops you mentioned.

[Deuce]

Where does the list say they can dismount?

I'm glad, because I thought that a problem, but I don't see where the list states it.

[David Kuijt]

Where does the list say they can dismount?

I'm glad, because I thought that a problem, but I don't see where the list states it.

The data is there, but currently hidden from users. It's all part of the battle cards expansion. We have to make a last pass through the text and then rewrite the database code to show the battle cards appropriately. Perhaps in two months?

[Deuce]

Ok. Thanks. Will the battle cards be part of the list on meshwesh?

Do all medieval knights have the ability to dismount or just certain ones? I understand there is a cost for the ability. Won't that discourage people from dismounting, which seems like the default for late Medieval English knights?

Also, why 'Meshwesh'?

[David Kuijt]

Ok. Thanks. Will the battle cards be part of the list on meshwesh?

Yes. The online database (meshwesh) will show you the army list (as now), and also show you the battle cards available for that army list. If you click on a battle card reference you will get a page with the text of the rules for that battle card. For example, "Deployment Dismounting":

2. DEPLOYMENT DISMOUNTING

2.1 Rules Change: certain troop types are marked in the army lists as having a mounted type and an foot (dismounted) type. When these stands are deployed on the battlefield their owner may choose to deploy each stand as either its mounted or foot type.

Different stands must be used for the two types, with appropriate basing and figures.

Stands may not dismount (change from mounted to infantry) at any other point in the game.

Dismounted stands may not remount (change to their mounted type) during the battle.

2.2 Timing: the choice to use this ability is made at deployment.

2.3 Cost: +½ point per stand (rounded up). If the two stand types are different costs, the base cost (before modification) is the greater of the two costs. For example, a stand of Bad Horse (3pts) that can dismount as Elite Foot (4pts) would cost 4.5 points each.

This is an “all or none” ability – if a given line in the army list allows the ability, it must be purchased for all such stands or for none of them. If different lines in the same army list allow this battle card, the choice may be made separately for each line.

Design Note
This battle card represents the most common historical model for troops that were known to have fought either mounted or dismounted.

Some examples of armies from history that used this ability were the Hundred Years War English, Medieval French after the battle of Crecy, Medieval Germans in several battles, Mongol Conquest in a few rare battles, and many other examples from history.

That (above) is the draft text for the Deployment Dismounting battle card. May not be the final text -- as I say, we're going to be buffing the text as soon as we're finished working on the Print Version, which will hopefully be before the end of August.

Do all medieval knights have the ability to dismount or just certain ones?

Only the ones where there is evidence that they actually did it. Battle cards are intended to be historical army list supplements -- so if your army list didn't dismount in history, it shouldn't dismount in Meshwesh.

I understand there is a cost for the ability. Won't that discourage people from dismounting, which seems like the default for late Medieval English knights?

There are a number of battles where the English did not dismount.

If we do not put a price on it, players get something for free. There is absolutely no question that a Bad Horse with the ability to dismount mid-battle as a Light Spear is a more valuable unit than a Bad Horse that cannot do so. Since the point system is intended to give even games, the cost of battle cards must be considered as part of the cost for the army.

Also, why 'Meshwesh'?

Do you mean why the name? Why, isn't it cool?

Meshwesh is a noun that is not being used for anything else we could discover on the web, has to do with historical battles (it is the name of one of the tribes that fought the Egyptians), and is a good word (has nice internal rhyme). It's easy to remember and easy to spell, which is critical for the name of a web application because we want people to use it -- which means they have to be able to find it quickly and easily through google searches. There were some other names we considered, but that was five and more years ago and my memory of what they were is lost in the mists.

[Deuce]

'Meshwesh' is definitely cool!