Indians vs Seleucids
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 10:09 pm
Opposing Armies: Classical Indians vs Seleucids
Approximate Season and Year: Early Summer of 199 BCE
Rules: GRAND TRIUMPH! [though not religiously . . .]
Deployment & Points:
The Indian left had 16 units (9 of Bad Horse, 4 of Horde, and 3 of Elephants) amounting to 47 points. Indian center was composed of 18 units (a blend of Elephants, Bow Levy, Horde, and Heavy Foot) adding up to 48 points. The Indian right contained 15 units (6 of these being Chariots, with the rest being a mix of Elephants, Bow Levy and Heavy Foot) with a value of 48 points.
The Seleucid right was all cavalry, and consisted of 12 units (6 of Cataphracts, and 2 each of Knights, Javelin Cavalry and Horse Bow), which equaled 48 points. The Seleucid center was the phalanx and contained 16 units. The majority of these (12 units) were Pikes, and the point value of this phalanx was 50. The Seleucid left was a mixture of 15 units (4 of Raiders, 2 of Pikes, 1 Elephant, 1 Cataphracts, 4 Warriors, 1 Light Foot, 1 Javelin Cavalry and 1 Horse Bow) adding up to 49 points.
Notes:
Not all of the troops described as ‘Battle Line’ were contained within that defined area on my tabletop.
Unit stands were 70mm (7 cm) across, which is not one of the listed dimensions in the rules.
Description of tabletop: Approximately 117 inches by 45 inches. The “model” battlefield could be compared to the arguably flat and featureless terrain of Paraetacene (317 BCE).
Notes:
1. Per GRAND TRIUMPH! (Section 5.1), “the game board is 96 MU wide by 32 MU deep.” With a MU of 3.5 cm, this should have produced a board 336 cm wide (132.28 inches) by 112 cm deep (44 inches).
Summary:
As their first line was Bad Horse, it was not a complete shock to see the Indian left become demoralized shortly after being charged by the Seleucid Cataphracts and other cavalry. The Seleucids lost a single unit of Knights (i.e., Companions) in this sector. The Cataphracts were able to turn their attention to the Indian center, which had just been engaged by the multiple units of Pike. The Seleucids mowed down the enemy Bow Levy, adding a unit of Heavy Foot and one of Elephants to this total. Though their ranks were disorganized, the Seleucids had demoralized the Indian center without taking any losses. The only bright spot for the Indian army was their right wing, where their Chariots had done some solid work. The Bow Levy line seemed quite stubborn when faced with Seleucid Pike and Warrior units. Causing 14 points of damage on the Seleucid left was not enough to win the field and day, however. With two commands demoralized and the remnants of these sectors subject to further damage if not simply running away, the battle was called as a Seleucid victory.
Length of Game: Approximately 110 minutes.
Remarks/Take aways:
It was rather odd to field an Indian army and not have to roll any dice to resolve missile fire. (I gather that the effect of Indian archery is abstracted with the numerous Bow Levy units.)
It was somewhat unusual to have just 3 divisions or corps on each side.
The “firework effect” was evident, especially on the Seleucid right as they dismantled the enemy wing to their front. This display was also apparent in the center to the tabletop.
It might be interesting to see if a more ‘terrain friendly tabletop’ would have any influence on how the battle developed.
It might also be interesting to see if there is or are any better Indian OBs that would provide a more balanced or at least interesting game. (It could be remarked that the Seleucids pretty much rolled-over the Indians, the contest on the left excepted of course.)
Even though it has been a while since I last played TRIUMPH!, I was able to recall and or re-familiarize myself with the rules. This is not to say, however, that the scenario was mistake-free.
References, Sources, & Ideas:
The opposing armies were drafted from https://meshwesh.wgcwar.com/home. Much of the inspiration and resulting preparation for this simple project can be traced to Simon Watson’s battle Indians vs Seleucids report, which was posted on 14 January. (Please see https://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=8834.0) The rest of the inspiration could be attributed to looking for something simpler. In the early stages, some consideration was given to putting together a 10,000 points per side Tactica II battle or a large To The Strongest! scenario. Some quick checking informed (or reminded me) that a large Indians vs Seleucids game had been staged in June of 2024 with Simon Miller’s rules. Reviewing the blog entries/posts also resulted in matches from December 2023 as well as April of 2022.
I suppose that I could also cite the ‘vonketteringham’ YouTube video from May 20, 2022.
Approximate Season and Year: Early Summer of 199 BCE
Rules: GRAND TRIUMPH! [though not religiously . . .]
Deployment & Points:
The Indian left had 16 units (9 of Bad Horse, 4 of Horde, and 3 of Elephants) amounting to 47 points. Indian center was composed of 18 units (a blend of Elephants, Bow Levy, Horde, and Heavy Foot) adding up to 48 points. The Indian right contained 15 units (6 of these being Chariots, with the rest being a mix of Elephants, Bow Levy and Heavy Foot) with a value of 48 points.
The Seleucid right was all cavalry, and consisted of 12 units (6 of Cataphracts, and 2 each of Knights, Javelin Cavalry and Horse Bow), which equaled 48 points. The Seleucid center was the phalanx and contained 16 units. The majority of these (12 units) were Pikes, and the point value of this phalanx was 50. The Seleucid left was a mixture of 15 units (4 of Raiders, 2 of Pikes, 1 Elephant, 1 Cataphracts, 4 Warriors, 1 Light Foot, 1 Javelin Cavalry and 1 Horse Bow) adding up to 49 points.
Notes:
Not all of the troops described as ‘Battle Line’ were contained within that defined area on my tabletop.
Unit stands were 70mm (7 cm) across, which is not one of the listed dimensions in the rules.
Description of tabletop: Approximately 117 inches by 45 inches. The “model” battlefield could be compared to the arguably flat and featureless terrain of Paraetacene (317 BCE).
Notes:
1. Per GRAND TRIUMPH! (Section 5.1), “the game board is 96 MU wide by 32 MU deep.” With a MU of 3.5 cm, this should have produced a board 336 cm wide (132.28 inches) by 112 cm deep (44 inches).
Summary:
As their first line was Bad Horse, it was not a complete shock to see the Indian left become demoralized shortly after being charged by the Seleucid Cataphracts and other cavalry. The Seleucids lost a single unit of Knights (i.e., Companions) in this sector. The Cataphracts were able to turn their attention to the Indian center, which had just been engaged by the multiple units of Pike. The Seleucids mowed down the enemy Bow Levy, adding a unit of Heavy Foot and one of Elephants to this total. Though their ranks were disorganized, the Seleucids had demoralized the Indian center without taking any losses. The only bright spot for the Indian army was their right wing, where their Chariots had done some solid work. The Bow Levy line seemed quite stubborn when faced with Seleucid Pike and Warrior units. Causing 14 points of damage on the Seleucid left was not enough to win the field and day, however. With two commands demoralized and the remnants of these sectors subject to further damage if not simply running away, the battle was called as a Seleucid victory.
Length of Game: Approximately 110 minutes.
Remarks/Take aways:
It was rather odd to field an Indian army and not have to roll any dice to resolve missile fire. (I gather that the effect of Indian archery is abstracted with the numerous Bow Levy units.)
It was somewhat unusual to have just 3 divisions or corps on each side.
The “firework effect” was evident, especially on the Seleucid right as they dismantled the enemy wing to their front. This display was also apparent in the center to the tabletop.
It might be interesting to see if a more ‘terrain friendly tabletop’ would have any influence on how the battle developed.
It might also be interesting to see if there is or are any better Indian OBs that would provide a more balanced or at least interesting game. (It could be remarked that the Seleucids pretty much rolled-over the Indians, the contest on the left excepted of course.)
Even though it has been a while since I last played TRIUMPH!, I was able to recall and or re-familiarize myself with the rules. This is not to say, however, that the scenario was mistake-free.
References, Sources, & Ideas:
The opposing armies were drafted from https://meshwesh.wgcwar.com/home. Much of the inspiration and resulting preparation for this simple project can be traced to Simon Watson’s battle Indians vs Seleucids report, which was posted on 14 January. (Please see https://soa.org.uk/sm/index.php?topic=8834.0) The rest of the inspiration could be attributed to looking for something simpler. In the early stages, some consideration was given to putting together a 10,000 points per side Tactica II battle or a large To The Strongest! scenario. Some quick checking informed (or reminded me) that a large Indians vs Seleucids game had been staged in June of 2024 with Simon Miller’s rules. Reviewing the blog entries/posts also resulted in matches from December 2023 as well as April of 2022.
I suppose that I could also cite the ‘vonketteringham’ YouTube video from May 20, 2022.
