Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Discussion of the upcoming fantasy version of TRIUMPH!
RogerCooper
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Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Post by RogerCooper » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:49 pm

What new unit types will be used in Fantasy Triumph? Triumph has nice range of unit types which can cover a lot of fantasy forces (the Raider type is particularly useful) but clearly some new types will be needed to cover flyers at least.
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Rod
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Re: Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Post by Rod » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:12 pm

Actually Fantasy Triumph will use mostly existing unit types with the exception of one new type I can think of off the top of my head.

Players will be able to spend points to modify those existing types.

For example I have some flying Valkyries in one of my 15mm armies. I would field them as flying Jav Cav, so they play like Jav Cav, but have the added ability of flying so they cost more points than regular Jav Cav.
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Re: Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Post by David Kuijt » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:12 pm

Rod wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:12 pm
Actually Fantasy Triumph will use mostly existing unit types with the exception of one new type I can think of off the top of my head.
Which type is that, Rod?

//EDIT

In separate conversation Rod reminded me of the (very draft) rules for Powers -- the rare and powerful individuals that pop up in some fantasy battles and are sufficiently devastating to be able to have notable negative effect on mass combat units. We're both correct -- Powers is a new thing, not previously represented (which is what Rod was saying), but it is not a unit type (which was my point). For mass combat units, the existing types are sufficient (with some additional battle cards to allow for things like flight, underground travel, a few special abilities, and the like).
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Re: Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Post by David Kuijt » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:14 pm

RogerCooper wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:49 pm
What new unit types will be used in Fantasy Triumph? Triumph has nice range of unit types which can cover a lot of fantasy forces (the Raider type is particularly useful) but clearly some new types will be needed to cover flyers at least.
No new types, if we can avoid it.

Some abilities (like flight) will be available as Battle Cards -- additional abilities with a cost that can be purchased.
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Re: Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Post by Greyhawk Grognard » Fri May 29, 2020 10:12 pm

Can you give any inkling of what those rules for "Powers" look like?
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Re: Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Post by Rod » Sat May 30, 2020 12:38 pm

Well they are still in development so hard to comment on them as they are unfinished.

Conceptually we want a way to represent a character like Gandalf or Conan and their impact on a large battle without breaking the basic rule mechanism. Easy to say not so easy to do.

Conceptually they are very different than a unit which is made up a formation of soldiers because they represent an individual or a very small group, so this impacts how they move and interact on the battlefield. Yet, because of they are very powerful they can still impact whole units on the battlefield.

One concept is to have them on a round base because they do not have a formation, so no flank or rear. We are currently doing some playtesting of some of the other basic fantasy rules and hope to get to powers soon.
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Re: Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Post by David Kuijt » Sat May 30, 2020 1:11 pm

Greyhawk Grognard wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:12 pm
Can you give any inkling of what those rules for "Powers" look like?
As Rod said, they're in process. Ask again in a few weeks.

In terms of principles, here's a teaser:
Many fantasy settings distinguish individuals who have great power. These beings are mighty warriors, wizards, sages and the like who can overawe, terrify, and defeat normal beings with ease and function on a higher plane. In a Tolkein world this could be a great Elven warrior, like Fingolfin, or a balrog, or a ringwraith (but definitely not Legolas, and probably not Aragorn).

Powers are combat units representing single individuals.
  • Powers are based on 1mu circular bases.
  • Powers are not foot or mounted – those categories are for mass combat units.
  • Normal (non-Power) troops have a combat factor against Powers based upon their point value.
  • Exceptions? for example, maybe: Elephants are +5 vs. Powers, but are Shattered by them
  • Terrain does not affect them (movement or combat).
  • Powers move 8mu
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Re: Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Post by RogerCooper » Sat May 30, 2020 2:51 pm

My sense of "Powers" in fantasy is that they come in 2 types. One type can be defeated by mundane foes, while the other can only be defeated by other "Powers".

For example, in Tolkien, Smaug is effectively invulnerable to mundane foes, all they can do is run or hide. Smaug can be killed by a hero (like Bard the archer). On the other hand, heroes can be overwhelmed by numbers, such as Boromir's death by an Orc raiding party (probably a single unit in Triumph). This is a dynamic which could work in Triumph.

Even a lone hero, may still stop a unit, forcing it to engage in combat, like the Beserker at Stamford Bridge.
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Re: Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Post by Rod » Sat May 30, 2020 3:06 pm

Roger, yup something like that Powers will not act exactly like other units because they are sort of a different scale in number/size and in, well, Power :)

We definitely want a mechanism to add those characters to the games, but without a huge rules overhead or breaking the game.
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Re: Unit Types in Fantasy Triumph

Post by David Kuijt » Sat May 30, 2020 3:19 pm

RogerCooper wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 2:51 pm
My sense of "Powers" in fantasy is that they come in 2 types. One type can be defeated by mundane foes, while the other can only be defeated by other "Powers".

For example, in Tolkien, Smaug is effectively invulnerable to mundane foes, all they can do is run or hide. Smaug can be killed by a hero (like Bard the archer). On the other hand, heroes can be overwhelmed by numbers, such as Boromir's death by an Orc raiding party (probably a single unit in Triumph). This is a dynamic which could work in Triumph.

Even a lone hero, may still stop a unit, forcing it to engage in combat, like the Beserker at Stamford Bridge.
That's a very common dynamic in fantasy, yes. Or at least, that's the way it SEEMS. In hindsight. If the Witch King had known that the meaning of his doom forecast was that Eowyn was gonna off his undead ass, then he would have acted very differently when striking a pose and quoting his doom speech.

You also need to be careful with capitals when you say heroes. Boromir is a fell warrior. He ain't a power. Aragorn is a fell warrior. He isn't a power until about 90% through the books, when he is wielding Narsil and has accepted his destiny. And even then, he isn't a very big power. Legolas, Bard, Gimli, Faramir -- all heroes, not Heroes. Not powers. Gimli and Legolas took all night, behind fortifications, as part of a defending force, to kill just 42 random orcs each. That's a wonderful feat for a regular guy -- but compare that to Hurin, who stood on the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, fighting without any protection all alone against the Troll Guard of Morgoth, and killed 50 trolls, and would have gone on killing them except finally the troll blood ate through his axe and he was captured. Or to Fingolfin, who was so fierce that the whole army of Morgoth could not even stand up to his gaze, so Morgoth himself had to come out and meet him in battle.

Hurin is a power. Fingolfin is a power. Boromir is a fell warrior of the third age, but not someone who could force a thousand orcs to retreat by himself. Boromir and Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli and Gandalf all together were barely a match for a single troll and a couple of tens of goblins in Moria.
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