15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

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FanatiChris
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15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

Postby FanatiChris » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:05 am

Check out the new range of Jurchen Jin in 15mm from the ever prolific Khurasan Miniatures, which they brought out as an opponent for their Sung Chinese range.

Catalog at: http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/jurchen.html

My favorate code...the unarmored Chinese levies.

Rod
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Re: 15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

Postby Rod » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:56 am

Very cool figures, just looking on Meshwesh, it seems like this list might not be complete?

I only counted the ability to do 44 points tops?

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David Kuijt
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Re: 15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

Postby David Kuijt » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:38 am

Rod wrote:Very cool figures, just looking on Meshwesh, it seems like this list might not be complete?

I only counted the ability to do 44 points tops?


You have to take the Bohai (Belhae) infantry, or else take an ally. One or the other.
DK

Rod
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Re: 15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

Postby Rod » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:53 pm

Ok, I did not realize there were armies that could not make it to 48 pts without an ally.

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David Kuijt
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Re: 15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

Postby David Kuijt » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:34 pm

Rod wrote:Ok, I did not realize there were armies that could not make it to 48 pts without an ally.


The Belhae/Chinese contingent isn't really an ally; it is sort of subject troops/auxiliaries upon which the Jurchen Jin became quite dependent. But I'm glad you brought it to our attention; I'm thinking maybe we should reexamine their situation. If the Jurchen Jin is the only case in the whole army list where we set it up that way, then maybe we should reconsider. Jack has a fancy automated point evaluator routine; we'll take a look.
DK

Rod
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Re: 15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

Postby Rod » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:51 pm

The only other question I had on these guys was why not more Horsebow options? I know little about them specifically, but seems their roots were similar to other nomadic Horsebow armies.

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David Kuijt
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Re: 15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

Postby David Kuijt » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:51 am

Rod wrote:I know little about them specifically, but seems their roots were similar to other nomadic Horsebow armies.


(a) they weren't nomadic tribes from the steppe; your roots statement isn't accurate
(b) lots of lancers. Lances as a major part of tactics may mean Elite Cavalry or may mean Knights depending upon how fiercely they use them and whether the bows are emphasized or deemphasized, but it rarely rarely means Horsebow
(c) etc.
DK

Rod
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Re: 15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

Postby Rod » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:37 am

David,
Like I said I don't know much about them, what I had read said they were semi-nomadic tribe that took over North Eastern China and relied heavily on mounted forces like the Mongols. Then it would seem they maybe became more Chinese than nomadic. but that is just internet sources. Plus I have seen figures like the Khursan ones with what look like lightly armored horse archers. I assume they are based on some reference material.

I see the earlier Meshwesh Jin lists more Horsebow. So before they became more Chinese like I assume?

Some of what I could find seems to lean towards Cataphracts for the later (more Chinese style) Jin.
http://dragonsarmory.blogspot.com/2017/ ... armor.html

Definitely shows heavy armor, lance and bow. Just curious why would we treat them as Elite Cav or knight instead of Cataphract? Is it based on battle accounts?

Apparently they were even described as dismounting to fight on foot with two handed weapons.

Do you have some suggested reading material on them?

Andreas Johansson
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Re: 15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

Postby Andreas Johansson » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:22 am

In origin, they were a forest people - it may be more helpful to think of them as "Siberian" rather than "steppe" - making a mixed living from hunting, fishing, animal husbandry, and low-intensity agriculture. They presumably found adopting a Sinicized lifestyle a lesser step than did the Khitans or Mongols.

Herbert Franke's Krieg and Krieger in chinesischen Mittelalter has, despite the German title, a chapter in English about the Jin military system. Perhaps most usefully from an army list writer perspective is a brief discussion of a description of early (ca 1113) Jurchen cavalry from a Chinese work known as the Sanchao beimeng huibian; it describes a platoon consisting of twenty armoured lancers with thirty lightly protected archers behind. Emphasis is placed on keeping formation and not charging precipituously. This is reminicent of Byzantine practices and presumably Elite Cavalry in Triumph! terms.

It's presumably not "ancestral" Jurchen tactics, but inspired by Khitan, Chinese, and/or Korean practice. In particular, it seems more suited for the open lands of the steppe and northern China rather than the heavy forests of the Jurchen homeland in eastern Manchuria (incl parts of what's now Russia's Maritime Province).

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David Kuijt
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Re: 15mm Khurasan Jurchen Jin

Postby David Kuijt » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:11 pm

Andreas Johansson wrote:a platoon consisting of twenty armoured lancers with thirty lightly protected archers behind. Emphasis is placed on keeping formation and not charging precipituously. This is reminicent of Byzantine practices and presumably Elite Cavalry in Triumph! terms.


Exactly. In this case the unit formation is an important component in trying to classify the troop type to represent them. Heavily armored lancers who fight as a unit might be Cataphracts or Knights. Lightly armored horse archers who fight together might normally be Horsebow. Armored lancers combined with lightly protected archers in the same unit are a completely different thing -- if the lancers don't do a lot of charging (i.e., stay to provide the horse archers with some beef in close combat and protection otherwise, like a loose-formation mounted set of Pavises) then we usually rate those as performing like Elite Cavalry. Unless they suck, in which case formation or whatever doesn't matter, they're all Bad Horse.
DK


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