forum.wgcwar.com

Hello guys,
Firstly I have to thank Rod and Dave for the forum invitation. Some months ago my group and I recently quit Dba and started to play Triumph. I m trasforming all my DBA armies in Triumph armies. I would write here a couple of suggestions and notes about late italian condotta.
1) Carroccio wagons started to disappear in early 14th century and an anonymous from Milan wrote in his chronicles (1330 AD) only Pisa still used the Carroccio.
This kind of warwagon is connected with the "italian communal golden age" in 12th and 13th century and not really with late 14th and 15th centuries.
Carroccio standard wagon card doesn't fit well with this army list.
2) All Italian 15th century armies from Milan to Neapolis had in their ranks a very versatile troop equipped with large oval or round shield and spears (sometimes a second lighter spear or javelin too) usually they were fast and light equipped but sometimes they were heavily armed too and supporting the crossbows as pavisier.
These troops should be much more appropriate than buckler and swords troops in the list.
Hoping to be useful... I attached some pics too.
Best!
Leonerampante

Nice pics! I've got most of those (the Piero Della Francesca one in particular I remember), but I've never seen those first two or three.

So you're saying the Piero Della Francesca one is evidence for what troop type -- Light Foot? (oval shield, not much armor, spear)

I'll have to look back at my resources for the Standard Wagon (Carroccio) documentation -- I did quite a bit of reading about it three years ago when I was adding that stuff to the battle cards, but I don't recall the details now. I do recall that Hungary had a couple of examples of Standard Wagons much later than usual (later than 1330).

Can you find me the exact citation for the 1330/Pisa thing? Thanks!

Hello David!

thank you for your kind reply. Well... Carroccio is a symbol of the Italian Communal age, on the battlefield it represented the city itself . It was a typical wagon of the "city-state" as Florence, Pisa, Siena, Milan, Pavia and other cities of the center/north Italy. When in the14th century the communal (munucipal) system started to have a crisis and Dukes and Lords expanded they territories building Dukedoms and lordships using mercenaries, the Carroccio Wagon disappeared.
About the last Pisa carroccio you can take a look at: Anonymous (1330; in Rerum Italicarum Scriptores, book XI)

Easy sources are from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroccio
"14th century: decay and disappearance
The decadence of the Carroccio occurred due to the evolution of war tactics. When larger and more manoeuvrable armies began to appear, the municipal infantry were replaced by soldiers of "ventura", who, being mercenaries, lacked emotional ties and belonging to the city. The symbolic value of the Carroccio, in this historical context, was therefore less.[9] Moreover, from a logistical point of view, the Carroccio, being a very slow vehicle drawn by oxen, was not very mobile, and often created obstacles to the actions of war, which were becoming faster and faster.[9] For these reasons, the Carroccio, in the 14th century, went inexorably towards a phase of decadence which then led to its disappearance from the battlefields."
There are no mentions in late medieval battles about Carroccio.

About the oval/round shield and spear troops we have tons of chronicles and pics, some sources are:

http://stemmieimprese.it/2011/08/03/%E2 ... 9araldica/

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battaglia ... li)_03.jpg

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battaglia ... is)_01.jpg

https://legaitalica1454.org/2019/08/04/ ... riosita-2/

https://legaitalica1454.org/2015/07/08/ ... de-basini/

http://bibliotecaestense.beniculturali. ... x.2.14.pdf

https://www.google.com/search?q=rotelle ... 23&bih=690

They were basically soldiers equipped with:
Sallet or Barbuta Helmet
oval or round shield
light padded doublet
spear as main weapon
sword, dagger or falchion used as secondary arm in closer combat
sometimes they wore greaves and breastplate and a javelin too

i think they are light spears but the better equipped ones could be raiders maybe...

they were a fast and mobile open order infantry, but sometimes it is possible to see them in close order as communal spearmen or like pavesarii defending crossbowmen.
another kind of similar infantry were the "lanzelonghe" (longspears) they carried two hands longer spears, (but not really pikes) and no shields, but usually breastplate.

All the best!
Leonerampante