What does Nile Princes represent?

A place to talk about MESHWESH army lists
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Deuce
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What does Nile Princes represent?

Post by Deuce » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:41 pm

I found Viceroys of Kush on Wikipedia, but I’m not sure what Nile Princes represent.
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David Kuijt
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Re: What does Nile Princes represent?

Post by David Kuijt » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:46 pm

Deuce wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:41 pm
I found Viceroys of Kush on Wikipedia, but I’m not sure what Nile Princes represent.
Third Intermediate Period. The dynasties (22nd and 23rd and 21st) don't really match perfectly to the armies -- the powerful leaders of the 22nd and 23rd dynasties are Libyan Egyptian, but as soon as those dudes died things went back to the fragmented rulership it had before, and all the minor players are better represented as Nile Princes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Int ... d_of_Egypt

The 725 end of the Nile Princes is when the Kushites (Kushite Egyptian army) complete their conquest of the minor powers that make up Egypt. At that point there are no more independent rulers in Egypt; everything is under the sandal of the Kushites. The last parts of the Libyan Egyptians (23rd dynasty) are conquered a little later, 712 I think.

See map:
Image
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Deuce
Levy
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Re: What does Nile Princes represent?

Post by Deuce » Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:45 pm

Thanks!

Interesting but rather confusing!

So I think it represents local rulers separate from the Libyan Egyptians?
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David Kuijt
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Re: What does Nile Princes represent?

Post by David Kuijt » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:42 pm

Deuce wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:45 pm
Thanks!

Interesting but rather confusing!

So I think it represents local rulers separate from the Libyan Egyptians?
Yes and no.

During the third intermediate period there were a number of major powers that had much of Egypt under their control. And there were lots of times where central control failed for generations.

The 22nd and 23rd dynasty were Libyan Egyptians. The 21st weren't. The 24th weren't -- they were Kushite Egyptians.

But during times of chaos (failed central control) during the third intermediate period, there were still rulers on cities on the Nile ("Egypt" means "The Nile"). And the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd dynasties overlapped each other -- there were times that rulers of the various cities on the Nile were from various of those dynasties.

Some of the more powerful 22nd/23rd dynasty rulers had control/alliances/power over the Libyan tribes that had taken over large swathes of Lower Egypt. Those count as Libyan Egyptians.

Some of the weaker rulers, especially on the Upper Nile farther from the centers of military strength of the Libyan tribes in Lower Egypt, would have had few (if any) Libu and Meshwesh fighters in their armies. Those count as Nile Princes -- regardless of whether they were actually born of the lineage of the 21st, 22nd, or 23rd dynasty.
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Deuce
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Re: What does Nile Princes represent?

Post by Deuce » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:41 pm

Thanks again! I really appreciate your taking time to answer.

I’ve been doing some reading on it, but that clarifies it. Interesting if confusing period.

Would the High Priest at Thebes fall under that list too?
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David Kuijt
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Re: What does Nile Princes represent?

Post by David Kuijt » Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:06 pm

Deuce wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:41 pm
Would the High Priest at Thebes fall under that list too?
Yup. Most of the Third Intermediate Period the High Priests at Thebes were hereditary and independent -- i.e., Nile Princes.
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