Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

A place to talk about MESHWESH army lists
User avatar
Andreas Johansson
Companion-at-Arms
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:40 pm

Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

Post by Andreas Johansson » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:02 am

Meshwesh has one list for "Northern Five Dynasties" and another for "Later Tang and Southern Five Dynasties". There's also one for "Shatuo Chinese dynasties" (which both the forgoing seem to lack as an Enemy).

My best guess would be that this is meant to carve up the late Tang and the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdom periods like this, based on the names, dates, and contents, and on how the WRG lists work:

Northern Five Dynasties = Later Liang and Later Zhou
Later Tang and Southern Five Dynasties = late Tang and the Ten Kingdoms except the Northern Han
Shatuo Chinese dynasties = Later Tang, Later Jin, Later Han, and Northern Han

The slightly bold assumption here is, of course, that the "Later Tang and Southern Five Dynasties" includes neither the Later Tang nor any of the other Five Dynasties: I'm assuming it should be "Late Tang", as in the 755-907 part of the Tang dynasty, and that "Southern Five Dynasties" is curious way of referring to the South during the Five Dynasties period.

Assuming this is correct, I would suggest renaming as follows:

Northern Five Dynasties → Later Liang and Later Zhou
Later Tang and Southern Five Dynasties → Late Tang and Ten Kingdoms
Shatuo Chinese Dynasties → Shatuo Chinese Dynasties [no change]

If my assumptions are wrong, a blame the confusing list names and submit they need to change anyway :P
User avatar
David Kuijt
Grand Master WGC
Posts: 783
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: MD suburbs of Washington DC

Re: Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

Post by David Kuijt » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:54 pm

Hey Andreas,

Thanks for your feedback -- I'm not ignoring you, but I'm really busy with work and prepping for this weekend's convention and funeral and I won't be able to really look at your stuff until next week at the earliest.
DK
User avatar
Andreas Johansson
Companion-at-Arms
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:40 pm

Re: Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

Post by Andreas Johansson » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:42 am

That's fine of course - it's not like I'm in an hurry here.

While at it, I'll take the opportunity to remark that by the standards of game designers I've interacted with - and I'm by no means only thinking of the sometimes communication-challenged Barkers here - you're very good at acknowledging and responding to feedback. It's appreciated :)
User avatar
David Kuijt
Grand Master WGC
Posts: 783
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: MD suburbs of Washington DC

Re: Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

Post by David Kuijt » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:19 pm

Andreas Johansson wrote: While at it, I'll take the opportunity to remark that by the standards of game designers I've interacted with - and I'm by no means only thinking of the sometimes communication-challenged Barkers here - you're very good at acknowledging and responding to feedback. It's appreciated :)
Thank you. I've also been told I'm very tall (by the standards of professional jockeys). It's all a matter of perspective... :)
DK
User avatar
Andreas Johansson
Companion-at-Arms
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:40 pm

Re: Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

Post by Andreas Johansson » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:04 pm

Did you find any time to look at this? :)
User avatar
David Kuijt
Grand Master WGC
Posts: 783
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: MD suburbs of Washington DC

Re: Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

Post by David Kuijt » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:09 pm

Andreas Johansson wrote:Did you find any time to look at this? :)
Not yet -- in fact, I completely forgot about it :oops: . With that said, it's the last week of the semester before Final Exams and the students are freaking out and I've got a metric buttload of grading to catch up on and so on, so realistically I won't be able to look at it until maybe Dec 20 or so.
DK
User avatar
Andreas Johansson
Companion-at-Arms
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:40 pm

Re: Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

Post by Andreas Johansson » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:19 pm

*bump*
User avatar
Andreas Johansson
Companion-at-Arms
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:40 pm

Re: Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

Post by Andreas Johansson » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:10 am

I'll give this a final bump, because I'm still wondering :)
User avatar
David Kuijt
Grand Master WGC
Posts: 783
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: MD suburbs of Washington DC

Re: Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

Post by David Kuijt » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:57 am

Andreas Johansson wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:10 am
I'll give this a final bump, because I'm still wondering :)
Thanks for following up on this -- I had lost track of it. I have to do some stupid training all day (civility in the workspace!); hopefully that will give me some time to read up on this. Unless the whole day is going to be occupied with "break up into groups and roleplay" -- Cheeses Crusty, what a waste of time.
DK
User avatar
David Kuijt
Grand Master WGC
Posts: 783
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: MD suburbs of Washington DC

Re: Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms

Post by David Kuijt » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:05 pm

Hey Andreas,

Turns out that I had done some work on this back soon after you pointed out the inaccuracies to me, but I had later forgotten (and never posted anything about it here).

In the realm of naming purification, the new version is as follows:

OLD NAME → NEW NAME
Northern Five Dynasties → Later Liang, Later Zhou, and Northern Han
Later Tang and Southern Five Dynasties → Post Rebellion Tang, Southern Han, and Ten Kingdoms Southern States
Shatuo Chinese Dynasties → Shatuo Chinese Dynasties (Later Tang, Later Jin, and Later Han)

Now reading about the Shatuo Chinese Dynasties, I'm wondering if the Northern Han ought to be considered as a Shatuo Chinese Dynasty rather than a Northern Five Dynasties -- the difference is primarily whether it (N.Han) is a Shatuo Chinese Dynasty army (Elite Cav, Horsebow, with lots of Northern Chinese foot troops as well) or a Northern Five Dynasties army (smaller contingents of Elite Cav and Horsebow; more and better Chinese foot). Any thoughts?

Note that I decided to rename the Late Tang (which was intended to represent the Tang armies after the start of the An Lushan series of rebellions) as Post Rebellion Tang -- because calling them Late Tang is confusing given the existence of the Later Tang as a Shatuo (non-Chinese) dynasty within a few generations.

I've linked up the Shatuo Chin.Dyn. with an enemies link to the Northern Five Dynasties -- do you have any idea whether they ever fought battles against the Ten Kingdoms down in the south?
DK
Post Reply