The vast majority of hoplite infantry, with very few exceptions (e.g. a portion of the Syracusan and Estruscan ones IIRC) are classed as Heavy Infantry. The very best are classed Elite Infantry. I think this is perfectly reasonable given the foot-vs-foot emphasis prevalent in the era, but there's still one thing that bugs me- neither heavy infantry nor elites can receive rear support. And depth is notoriously considered an important parameter in hoplite warfare (insert here your favourite trivia on Leuctra, Mantinea, Marathon etc etc).
Simple geometry tells us that our heavy/elite infantry elements already have all the depth necessary to depict most 'reasonably' deep formation (I'm looking at you, Epaminondas), but since rear support is mostly a game abstraction to represent deeper-than-usual formations, not including this specific aspect of hoplite clashes in the game seems a pity...
Am I missing something?
Hoplite depth
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David Kuijt
- Grand Master WGC
- Posts: 1488
- Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:44 pm
- Location: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Re: Hoplite depth
No, that's an error. Why do Spear get rear support (59.3)? Leuctra etc. Somehow we managed to avoid noticing that when we created the classification of Heavy Foot and then classified all the hoplites as Heavy Foot, now that aspect of hoplite clashes disappears. D'OH!MarkusB wrote: Simple geometry tells us that our heavy/elite infantry elements already have all the depth necessary to depict most 'reasonably' deep formation (I'm looking at you, Epaminondas), but since rear support is mostly a game abstraction to represent deeper-than-usual formations, not including this specific aspect of hoplite clashes in the game seems a pity...
Am I missing something?
We'll fix. We'll discuss it (probably this weekend), but my current feel is to make Rear Support a battle card option for Heavy Foot and give it to most of the Hoplite armies. My gut feel is NOT to allow all Heavy Foot a Rear Support option -- there are a thousand armies with HFt, and the vast majority of them never experimented with deeper-than-usual formations a la Epaminondas.
We'll probably take out the current Spear +1 for rear support, as I can't recall any occasion for it except Hoplite battles. The other rear supports (Light Spear, Warriors, Pike, Warband) will stay unaffected.
DK
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David Schlanger
- Grand Master WGC
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:01 pm
Re: Hoplite depth
Thanks for raising this question Markus. Getting all of this good feedback is a huge help getting little issues resolved as we move forward from our initial Early Access edition of the rules!
DS
DS
Re: Hoplite depth
@David Kuijt-
I agree, rear support for all heavy foot definitely doesn't seem the right way to fix this, while ad-hoc battle cards can do the trick. With one caveat: an 'hoplite depth' battle card should also refer to Elite infantry rear support - if it doesn't, Spartiates and the Sacred Band wouldn't be able to form in depth.
@David Schlanger-
Glad to be helpful!
I agree, rear support for all heavy foot definitely doesn't seem the right way to fix this, while ad-hoc battle cards can do the trick. With one caveat: an 'hoplite depth' battle card should also refer to Elite infantry rear support - if it doesn't, Spartiates and the Sacred Band wouldn't be able to form in depth.
@David Schlanger-
Glad to be helpful!
Re: Hoplite depth
OK, just for the fun of it, I thought about how I would do it...
Hoplite Infantry (0 points) -All heavy and elite infantry described as hoplites in the army list must take this card.
1) Rear support: hoplites get +1 in close combat only VS other hopites if supported by a stand of the same type.
2) Exposed flank: hoplites get -1 in close combat only VS other hoplites if their RIGHT flank is not in contact with a friendly stand (corner contacts don't count).
This would take care of the following issues:
1) Depth seeed to matter quite a lot in hoplite VS hoplite clashes, much less so VS other combatants and for mercenary hoplites fighting in the whole mediterranean/asiatic theatre (the only exception I can think of is Marathon, where the deep wings pushed back bow levy/archers/hordes more than the thin centre).
2) The asimmetry of the requirement should help in reconstructing the typical dynamic of "revolving door" battles. Also, being a negative modifier that emerges when lines are in disarray, it should help in making hoplite VS hoplite clashed both quicker and more decisive than the typical heavy foot VS heavy foot clashes- which they definitely were, as exemplified in several sources.
3) The suggested battle card wouldn't mess with the balance between hoplite heavy foot and 'normal' elite/heavy foot: if the battle card just gave rear support acces, this would make italiote hoplites better than latin legions, for example.
Just my 2c!
Hoplite Infantry (0 points) -All heavy and elite infantry described as hoplites in the army list must take this card.
1) Rear support: hoplites get +1 in close combat only VS other hopites if supported by a stand of the same type.
2) Exposed flank: hoplites get -1 in close combat only VS other hoplites if their RIGHT flank is not in contact with a friendly stand (corner contacts don't count).
This would take care of the following issues:
1) Depth seeed to matter quite a lot in hoplite VS hoplite clashes, much less so VS other combatants and for mercenary hoplites fighting in the whole mediterranean/asiatic theatre (the only exception I can think of is Marathon, where the deep wings pushed back bow levy/archers/hordes more than the thin centre).
2) The asimmetry of the requirement should help in reconstructing the typical dynamic of "revolving door" battles. Also, being a negative modifier that emerges when lines are in disarray, it should help in making hoplite VS hoplite clashed both quicker and more decisive than the typical heavy foot VS heavy foot clashes- which they definitely were, as exemplified in several sources.
3) The suggested battle card wouldn't mess with the balance between hoplite heavy foot and 'normal' elite/heavy foot: if the battle card just gave rear support acces, this would make italiote hoplites better than latin legions, for example.
Just my 2c!