Rabble Movement Rate

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JonathanJ
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Rabble Movement Rate

Postby JonathanJ » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:28 am

I just tried out a Later Hoplites game (Thebans with cavalry and Spartans with elite foot).
It was great fun except... I can't get over the fact that my javelin armed psiloi (rabble) move at the same rate as my hoplites and slower than the light foot in the same army. It just felt wrong.

Can anyone explain the reasoning behind this?

Rod
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Re: Rabble Movement Rate

Postby Rod » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:36 pm

The number of different troops that fit into what might have been "Psiloi" category in Triumph are larger than in some other systems. The term Psiloi was used to describe numerous different types and varying quality lightly armed troops...

Triumph breaks them down for example.
Rabble are a group of lightly armed, poorly trained troops.... maybe less eager than your regular light infantry no reason they would be faster per say in the open than a well trained hoplite. No real formation, just open order guys with javelins/pointy sticks. However, they can move through rough terrain in a group (so that makes them perfect for covering those flanks anchored on rough terrain).

Light Foot - better trained an a lot more capable, these guy move quite fast, and use loose formations, but have some level of organization even in open order.

Skirmishers - highly trained light troops, but with long range weapons (slings or bows)... "Sharpe's Rifles"

Light Spear - light troops with longer pointy sticks slightly better at holding off mounted.

That's my take on why? The Authors might have a better explanation :P

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David Kuijt
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Re: Rabble Movement Rate

Postby David Kuijt » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:41 pm

Rod wrote:That's my take on why? The Authors might have a better explanation :P


No, that's pretty good, Rod.

One other critical aspect that Rod doesn't mention is that movement rate is directly linked to ability to voluntarily disengage from combat. Making Rabble faster than Hoplites (to use the original poster's example) would mean that they could disengage from combat with them (and, in fact, from the vast majority of close-order foot). Rabble really, really don't have the training or experience for that.

The way it is set up right now, Rabble can't disengage from much at all -- just Horde (the close-order troop type with no experience or training) and Bow Levy and a few ordnance type things that can't voluntarily engage in close combat themselves (artillery, war wagons).
DK

Rod
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Re: Rabble Movement Rate

Postby Rod » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:38 pm

Can't disengage, unless they panic and outright run that is :)

Which I like....

JonathanJ
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Re: Rabble Movement Rate

Postby JonathanJ » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:58 pm

When I posted originally, I was more concerned with the "feel" of the game.

I wondered why the "free wheeling" rabble could not move more freely, in a tactical sense, than the close order battle line troops. The "who can disengage from who" argument is pretty compelling and I'll get used to the "slow" movement of loose order rabble (I can imagine the idiots arguing over where to go next instead of just doing it).

Thank you for the answers.

JonathanJ
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Re: Rabble Movement Rate

Postby JonathanJ » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:02 pm

Rod wrote:Can't disengage, unless they panic and outright run that is :)

Which I like....

I like it too!
I just don't understand why shieldwall troops (Spear) can run down rabble when hoplites (Heavy Foot) can't. I understand all of the others since they are faster, more capable, have ranged weapons, etc. I just don't see sheildwall chasing down panicking rabble.

Though, like the disengagement interactions, there is probably something I'm missing.

MarkusB
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Re: Rabble Movement Rate

Postby MarkusB » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:49 am

JonathanJ wrote:
Rod wrote:I just don't understand why shieldwall troops (Spear) can run down rabble when hoplites (Heavy Foot) can't. I understand all of the others since they are faster, more capable, have ranged weapons, etc. I just don't see sheildwall chasing down panicking rabble.


Are you referring to the fact that rabble is destroyed if doubled by Spear and Elite Infantry, but not by heavy infantry (who panicks them instead)?

JonathanJ
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Re: Rabble Movement Rate

Postby JonathanJ » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:26 pm

Yes.

I just don't see why heavy infantry and warriors would only panic them when a more static formation such as spear would destroy them.

Overall, I like the interactions. So far, spear destroying rabble instead of panicking them is the only one that doesn't make sense to me.

So, it isn't much of a complaint. I was just wondering about the rationale behind the decision.

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David Kuijt
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Re: Rabble Movement Rate

Postby David Kuijt » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:49 pm

JonathanJ wrote:Yes.

I just don't see why heavy infantry and warriors would only panic them when a more static formation such as spear would destroy them.

Overall, I like the interactions. So far, spear destroying rabble instead of panicking them is the only one that doesn't make sense to me.

So, it isn't much of a complaint. I was just wondering about the rationale behind the decision.


Spear in Triumph! are elite foot specialized against mounted (where Elite Foot are elite foot specialized against infantry). Heavy Foot, in contrast, are just generics in a sense and aren't elite or specially trained. So our initial assessment was based upon that -- Rabble can pseudo-skirmish against the crappier generic heavy foot, but don't do so well against better troops (Elite Foot or Spear -- 4pt types both).

We could have set it up so that Spear would panic Rabble; you can make a theoretical argument for it as you do above (based upon the fact that the static defensive formation of the Spear stand is what gives it its elite power against mounted, but that same static defensive formation does not enhance its ability against crappy foot skirmish dudes). That would have been reasonable too. It would cause a minor degradation of the value of Spear, which might or might not have an impact, but needs to be considered.

I'm more interested in historical examples than in theoretical discussions isolated from history, though. Do you have a particular historical interaction with Rabble fighting against Spear (infantry rated as Spear in Triumph!, I mean) upon which you are focused? Arguments based purely upon theory aren't as compelling as arguments based upon historical interaction with a particular army.
DK

JonathanJ
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Re: Rabble Movement Rate

Postby JonathanJ » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:40 pm

David Kuijt wrote:Do you have a particular historical interaction with Rabble fighting against Spear (infantry rated as Spear in Triumph!, I mean) upon which you are focused? Arguments based purely upon theory aren't as compelling as arguments based upon historical interaction with a particular army.

I don't offhand. I suspect it will be difficult to find much since I've not seen a lot of writing about the long term behavior of crappy foot skirmishing dudes.

Due to a family tragedy, I won't be able to look into this for about a week. In the meantime, if you could give me some examples of skirmishing foot being destroyed by shieldwall so I have a counter example and know what you are looking for, that would help.

For that matter, if anyone wants to chime in with examples for either side, that would be great.


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