Between light foot and raider?

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greedo
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Re: Between light foot and raider?

Post by greedo » Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:27 pm

David Kuijt wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:33 pm
Interesting article, thanks for the link.

Much of what he says doesn't contradict Triumph's ratings -- it seems that his arguments are focused on other people (whose articles aren't directly cited). For example, when he says there was more difference between Romans and Greeks in the eyes of Roman commentators, he's talking about what we call Pike. In our game, that's obvious. Similarly for Iberians in Carthage employ (some of them fighting in what we would call close order) -- later Carthaginian armies include a variety of troops (including Iberians and Gauls) as Heavy Foot (or even as Hannibal's Veterans, as Elite Foot).

The really interesting question is whether Iberians fighting in their tribal units would be fighting as close-order troops or open order. He makes some interesting points, to be sure. But note also in his article where he quotes Livy as describing the Celtiberians in ways that almost force them to be rated as Raiders (or as Light Foot). That's in the footnotes (footnote 22).

As a separate note, one of his Livy quotes includes the passage that gives Ancient Spanish mounted the ability to dismount during a battle (mid-battle dismounting battle card).
The great part is with Meshwesh, is that if new articles like this show up, and prove credible, then it's relatively easy to re-characterize some units.
I didn't notice the dismounting jav cav, but do now, which is cool.
Also didn't consider the idea of Ancient Iberians vs Iberians in Carthage as being different troop types potentially, but that's a good point. What would they do on their home turf vs fighting as part of a larger army...?

Also, I didn't see any Elite Foot in Later Carth forces. Is that post Zama? Or is it more of an idea for later adjustments? I only see Heavy Foot in all 3 later Carth lists.
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David Kuijt
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Re: Between light foot and raider?

Post by David Kuijt » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:42 pm

greedo wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:27 pm
The great part is with Meshwesh, is that if new articles like this show up, and prove credible, then it's relatively easy to re-characterize some units.
Yup.
greedo wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:27 pm
I didn't notice the dismounting jav cav, but do now, which is cool.
There are so few descriptions of battles, and it is so difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, that something definite like that is remarkable.
greedo wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:27 pm
Also didn't consider the idea of Ancient Iberians vs Iberians in Carthage as being different troop types potentially, but that's a good point. What would they do on their home turf vs fighting as part of a larger army...?
It's a complicated situation. Roman foederati very likely started fighting in their native style, and very likely ended (years later) fighting in Roman style, but how to determine when to make the transition? Without any evidence?

We can't have army lists listing "Iberian Mercenaries who have been retrained and spent 5+ years in the Carthaginian army" vs. "Iberian Mercenaries newly off the boat fighting in Iberian agile style per Livy's description". We don't have any data. And that's for one of the two best-documented armies of the classical period!
greedo wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:27 pm
Also, I didn't see any Elite Foot in Later Carth forces. Is that post Zama? Or is it more of an idea for later adjustments? I only see Heavy Foot in all 3 later Carth lists.
Hannibal in Italy.

http://meshwesh.wgcwar.com/armyList/5fb ... 6c/explore
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greedo
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Re: Between light foot and raider?

Post by greedo » Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:08 pm

David Kuijt wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:42 pm
Hannibal in Italy.
http://meshwesh.wgcwar.com/armyList/5fb ... 6c/explore
!! Ok, I didn't know that existed! I've been using the search bar, and have been typing in "Carth", and it shows me Early Carth, Later Carth in Spain, Later Carth not in Spain or Italy, and Later Carth Post Zama......
I was wondering where Later Carth IN Italy was!
So much COOLER with a couple of elite veterans!

If I may make a suggestion, rename the army "Later Carthaginian: Hannibal in Italy", as I suspect there will be more people like me who make that mistake, who only use the search engine rather than browsing the armies directly, and we'll be searching for Carthage, rather than Hannibal specifically.
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Re: Between light foot and raider?

Post by David Kuijt » Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:32 pm

greedo wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:08 pm
If I may make a suggestion, rename the army "Later Carthaginian: Hannibal in Italy", as I suspect there will be more people like me who make that mistake, who only use the search engine rather than browsing the armies directly, and we'll be searching for Carthage, rather than Hannibal specifically.
The search engine is supposed to catch search keys as well as titles, and Hannibal in Italy has the search keys "Carthage" and "Carthaginian". I'll have to ask our online database person to check what's up with that; it should have come up.
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Re: Between light foot and raider?

Post by JonathanJ » Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:23 pm

David Kuijt wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:32 pm
The search engine is supposed to catch search keys as well as titles, and Hannibal in Italy has the search keys "Carthage" and "Carthaginian". I'll have to ask our online database person to check what's up with that; it should have come up.
Meshwesh only searches for keywords if you're on the main army list page and push the "include keywords in search" button.

The quick search doesn't include keywords.

I originally had trouble finding the samurai armies because I only typed in "Japan"... ;)
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greedo
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Re: Between light foot and raider?

Post by greedo » Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:23 am

JonathanJ wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:23 pm
David Kuijt wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:32 pm
The search engine is supposed to catch search keys as well as titles, and Hannibal in Italy has the search keys "Carthage" and "Carthaginian". I'll have to ask our online database person to check what's up with that; it should have come up.
Meshwesh only searches for keywords if you're on the main army list page and push the "include keywords in search" button.

The quick search doesn't include keywords.

I originally had trouble finding the samurai armies because I only typed in "Japan"... ;)
Interesting. I’m definitely searching from pages, switching between Polybian Roman and carth, so good to know!
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David Kuijt
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Re: Between light foot and raider?

Post by David Kuijt » Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:02 am

As JonathanJ points out, you have to check the box on the right "Include keywords in search". See below: searching on "carth" gets you six lists.
image.png
image.png (46.36 KiB) Viewed 715 times
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greedo
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Re: Between light foot and raider?

Post by greedo » Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:49 pm

I suppose if there was a post Zama Carthaginian, there should be a “Zama” army. Didn’t see that one either. Very cool.

I actually appreciate this format too. Most rulesets have early and late Carthage, and then have a whole series of dates that I have to follow to figure out what I can and cannot take. This at least breaks that out, so that I know what I can take if Hannibal is invading Italy, or we're in Spain, or we're trying to fight Zama etc.
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