Fall back whilst flanked

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greedo
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Fall back whilst flanked

Post by greedo » Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:45 am

After watching the Hattin and other YouTube videos, I had a question:

Situation:
A unit with nothing to its front, but an enemy to its flank.
The enemy beats but does not double the unit, and is not capable of shattering it.

Reading 80.2a,
“A stand that is forced to fall back is destroyed at the point that any of these conditions apply:
a. It begins the fall back move with an enemy stand in flank or rear contact with it.”

I got the impression that a flanked unit would get a -1 for being flanked but if it lost would turn to face the enemy and THEN fall back, dying if it can’t push things back or pass through them. That’s what I was seeing in the YouTube vids.

The only time I thought a unit gets destroyed is if it’s got a unit to its front AND flank.

Am I misunderstanding the rules? Does a unit that is flanked always get shattered if it loses and is forced to fall back?
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David Kuijt
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Re: Fall back whilst flanked

Post by David Kuijt » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:32 am

66.4 describes what happens when a stand being attacked in the flank or rear loses a combat.
66.4 If a stand is fighting to its flank and is forced to fall back, it first turns to face the enemy stand that it was fighting and then fallls back as normal. [...]
So turning to face happens first.

Once it turns to face, it is possible that it NOW has a stand on its flank. In which chase 80.2.a applies and it is dead.
80.2 A stand that is forced to fall back is destroyed at the point that any of these conditions apply:
(a) It begins the fall back move with an enemy stand in flank or rear contact with it
The rules are clear, but you have to be careful reading them. 66.4 says turning happens first, then falling back. 80.2 says if you begin the fall back move with an enemy in flank contact, you are dead. When do you begin the fall back move? After you turn, as it says in 66.4
DK
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greedo
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Re: Fall back whilst flanked

Post by greedo » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:23 pm

Ah that makes sense, so I did have it right, just got confused when I was re-reading. Thanks!
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Bill Hupp
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Re: Fall back whilst flanked

Post by Bill Hupp » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:38 pm

DK,

When would a flanked unit turn into flank contact? Could you give an example? I’m having trouble visualizing when that would happen.

Thanks.

Bill
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David Kuijt
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Re: Fall back whilst flanked

Post by David Kuijt » Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:19 pm

Bill Hupp wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:38 pm
DK,

When would a flanked unit turn into flank contact? Could you give an example? I’m having trouble visualizing when that would happen.
If you're hitting the end of a line with fast guys, it isn't hard to move such that one guy hits the flank, and one guy puts himself into position to be on the new-flank when the enemy turns. Yes, it would have been possible to hit the flank and rear and kill the guy easier (better factors, one more -1 for the rear attack) but in some cases you can't hit the rear because the guy who would be doing that isn't starting entirely behind the line of the rear, or perhaps doesn't have the move to completely cover the rear edge with its front edge -- where he does have the move to be such that he would cover the flank edge when the target turns.

Doesn't happen a lot, but it can certainly happen.
DK
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Rod
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Re: Fall back whilst flanked

Post by Rod » Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:11 pm

People think of Hattin as being surrounded, but as Napoleon would say, "I know have the advantage of interior lines"! or in another words I can shift my troops from one part of the battle to another more easily than you! Which can happen in that battle.

The beauty of the PIP command roll in re-creating the ebb and flow of a battle is underappreciated in my opinion. A real battle is not an IGUGO situation. The PIP die actually models that pretty well, but people don't usually see it because they are focused on one turn at a time. Not everything happens in a neat and orderly sequence in real life. The PIP die recreates that in a simple mechanical fashion that allows us to model that ebb and flow without simultaneous moving which is very impractical to do on the miniatures table.

Using 1-6 gives us situations where one side seemingly takes the initiative, or another side mysteriously chokes and seemingly stands still in confusion (like a real battle). In a normal battle this happens naturally, generals get wounded, orders get mixed up, confusion over who are those guys coming over that hill..... This can shift during the battle or seemingly have one guy backfooted the whole time. It happens.

Using an average die would push this closer to "you move one unit, I move one unit or the more static flow of IGUGO." So would somewhat reduce the down side and the upside of the current system. Some would argue it would take some of the luck factor out of the game, for me it would just change the planning. I always plan on getting a 1, but hope for more. Average dice, plan on a 2, but hope for more. Same thing when thinking of my opponent.

Try a few more games and keep Paul from Panic/evading his Horsebow when they should have died :)
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Re: Fall back whilst flanked

Post by Bill Hupp » Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:03 am

DK,

Thanks. I can see where you might not have enough movement to be front and flank or it might happen with some shifting of front line troops that have been in ZOC who can’t join a new combat. I still look up the turn to flank rule to make sure I get that right.

Bill
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greedo
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Re: Fall back whilst flanked

Post by greedo » Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:39 am

Bill Hupp wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:03 am
DK,

Thanks. I can see where you might not have enough movement to be front and flank or it might happen with some shifting of front line troops that have been in ZOC who can’t join a new combat. I still look up the turn to flank rule to make sure I get that right.

Bill
Ooh I need to look that up. I just thought ZOC just slowed you down, but if it prevents you joining another combat, that’s also very helpful (and dastardly!)
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greedo
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Re: Fall back whilst flanked

Post by greedo » Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:24 am

There it is. 52.1e

"It may make any otherwise legal move, but it is limited to a movement distance of 2MU and may not end in front contact, flank contact, or rear contact with any other enemy stand."

And I'm assuming that "flank contact" means I am in FRONT contact with an ENEMY'S flank, which seems obvious.

Loving the numbered paragraphs by the way. Easy to reference. Very Armati :)
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David Kuijt
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Re: Fall back whilst flanked

Post by David Kuijt » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:10 am

greedo wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:24 am
Loving the numbered paragraphs by the way. Easy to reference. Very Armati :)
Do you remember SPI rules, back in the 1970s and early 80s?
DK
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