Time of conforming

A place to ask specific rules questions about TRIUMPH!
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Fab
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Re: Time of conforming

Postby Fab » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:29 am

David Kuijt wrote:
Fab wrote:If the attacked element is not obliged to conform what happens ?

Is the move canceled ?


Nope. The moving group moves normally to the point of contact, then stops there without causing conforming. Just as it would if it hit a group, rather than a single stand.


So conforming is not immediate.

But then, when the combat phase comes and I roll the attack, the flanked element turns and suffers -1 (just as a flank attack on a group).
Am I right ?

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David Kuijt
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Re: Time of conforming

Postby David Kuijt » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:52 am

Fab wrote:
David Kuijt wrote:
Fab wrote:If the attacked element is not obliged to conform what happens ?

Is the move canceled ?


Nope. The moving group moves normally to the point of contact, then stops there without causing conforming. Just as it would if it hit a group, rather than a single stand.


So conforming is not immediate.

But then, when the combat phase comes and I roll the attack, the flanked element turns and suffers -1 (just as a flank attack on a group).
Am I right ?


I'm confused now. Are you talking about a group moving, hitting a single stand in an imperfect way (not perfectly aligned for combat), but that stand not conforming because it doesn't meet the conditions of 42.2 (in other words, all of a/b/c are not true: the stand has room to fall back before conforming, the stand that touches it wouldn't shatter it, and its conformed position would give it no room to fall back)? If so, then no, the stand doesn't have any combat at all. It will not turn, it will not be subject to article 55.

If that's not what you're talking about, I'm confused about what situation you're describing.
DK

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Fab
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Re: Time of conforming

Postby Fab » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:15 pm

Sorry for creating confusion :oops: ! Just the opposite of what is needed here.

First of all thank you David for your patience.

I'll try to clarify my situation.
Let's imagine that a Knight, in group with other mounted, "perfectly" contacts the left flank of a single Cataphracts (left front corner of the Knight touching the left front corner of the Cataphract).

But the Cataphracts has its right flank in contact with the left flank of a friendly Cataphract without forming a group because their front edges are not aligned (front corners not in contact).

IMO none of the 42.2 conditions applies, so the contacted Knight does not conform.

But as far as I understood the contact remains in place.

What happens now in the combat phase ?

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David Kuijt
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Re: Time of conforming

Postby David Kuijt » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:21 pm

Fab wrote:What happens now in the combat phase ?


If the contact is perfect, then yes, the defending stand (the Cataphract, in this case) will conform right before that particular combat is rolled. No matter how any stand gets into that position, that's what happens -- article 55 doesn't require memory. (actually, one of the guiding principles of the whole rule set is not to require memory)
DK

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Fab
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Re: Time of conforming

Postby Fab » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:39 pm

OK.

I think I understand the logic.

Thanks
Fab

MarkusB
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Re: Time of conforming

Postby MarkusB » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:00 pm

Thanks for the clarification on 42.2a/b/c... I think I can see why the clauses needed now.

David Kuijt wrote: Basically there are two different "conforms" going on [...] They both use the verb "conform", but it isn't really quite the same thing going on.


Actually, the only procedure called 'conforming' in the rules is the 'group-hits-single-element' situation described in article 42- the 'turning to face flank/rear attack' described in article 55 is never called 'conforming' in the rules. I don't see this as a source of confusion- they are different procedures happening at different times.

To sum things up, my understanding of how to resolve misaligned/imperfect contacts is the following:

1) During the movement phase:
- if a group or single element moves so that is causes 'proper' front/flank/rear contacts only, then everything is fine and no further action is needed.
- whenever a group stops its movement in contact with a single stand, but it's not a proper front/flank/rear contact - then apply article 42 immediately, forcing the contacted single stand to conform.
- whenever any other non-proper contact is established (group contacting group, single element contacting group) - then apply article 44 (in this context, article 44.2 is particularly relevant, meaning that non-combat-inducing contacts are OK and they remain in play as they stand).

2) During the combat phase:
- refer to article 55 if the attacker is in proper flank or rear contact.

Is this correct?

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Fab
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Re: Time of conforming

Postby Fab » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:29 pm

While waiting for an official answer, I'll give you my point of view.

1) It's better to split the case into different possibilities
1.a) If a group (not a single element) hits a single element in any way the single element must immediately conform if any of 42.2 a,b,c applies. If none of 42.2 applies the element does not conform.
1.b) If a single element or a group hit an element of a group nobody conforms at the moment.
Then, during the combat phase the contacted element turns to face the attacking element.EDIT if there's a "proper" flank contact (see article 55)

In Article 42 "Conforming" I don't see any referernce to "proper" contact. It says only "if contacted".

2) Article 55 speaks of "flank or rear contact" and in this case I understand, like you do, that it should be what we call a "proper" contact (see 15.3)


My two cents
Fab

MarkusB
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Re: Time of conforming

Postby MarkusB » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:40 pm

Hi Fab,

I think our readings coincide in substance if not in wording... Good point about including 42.2 a/b/c in the flowchart. You're also right about article 42 not explicitly mentioning "proper" contact (it just says 'if contacted')... But still I think that it only applies to 'non-proper' contacts, since if your move ended in nice [front-flank-rear] contact as per Article 15 in first place, you wouldn't need to further 'conform' in any way, isn't it?

If I read it correctly, Article 55 isn't about conforming at all. It describes what to do, during the combat phase, with elements in ('true', as per article 15) flank or rear contact. I don't see conceptual or practical links with article 42...

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Fab
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Re: Time of conforming

Postby Fab » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:50 am

Yes, I think it's a question of wording.

If any element ends the movement phase in "proper" contact no conforming is needed at the moment.

BUT
David Kuijt wrote:
Fab wrote:What happens now in the combat phase ?


If the contact is perfect, then yes, the defending stand (the Cataphract, in this case) will conform right before that particular combat is rolled. No matter how any stand gets into that position, that's what happens -- article 55 doesn't require memory. (actually, one of the guiding principles of the whole rule set is not to require memory)


We can use a different wording during the combat phase : the defending element does not "conform", it "turns to face the enemy", but the result is the same.

Cheers
Fab


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