Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

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Fab
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Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

Post by Fab » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:33 pm

Clarification needed on the subject (ref. point 26.3 and 26.4).

I have a line of three stands of Heavy Foot (side-edge to side-edge and corner to corner contact = a group) in Difficult terrain.

If I move them as a group (to get the advantages related to a group move) according to 26.4 I pay an additional command cost.
So it should be 1 (group move) +1 (additional) = 2 CPs.
Then point 26.4 adds : " Such a move has the same cost in command points as if each stand in the group was being moved as a single stand"

But If I move them individually I pay 1+1+1=3 CPs.

Which is the right calculation ?

Thanks
Fab
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David Kuijt
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Re: Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

Post by David Kuijt » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:52 pm

3 pts.

First sentence of 26.4 says 'additional command cost" -- that doesn't mean +1 point, that means +X points (some number of additional points, as a cost). How many is X? As many as if each stand in the group was being moved as a single stand (second sentence of 26.4).

Although I thank you for drawing my attention to it, because I see a minor mistake unrelated to your question. Second sentence should talk about columns, not stands -- because it is quite possible that a 3x2 group of something would be moving through difficult terrain, and that should cost 3 (number of columns/frontages) not 6 (number of stands).

As for your question, though, the answer is 3.

26.4 will be a good place to have a diagram.
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Fab
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Re: Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

Post by Fab » Sun Dec 18, 2016 7:53 pm

So, at the end, it's only a question of, let me say, declaration.

If I want to charge an enemy in difficult terrain with my troops and I want to take advantage of a group move, I only need to declare that I'm moving as a group because the cost is 3 CPs both if it's a group move and if it's a single stand (or single column) move.

Am I correct ?

Fab
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David Kuijt
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Re: Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

Post by David Kuijt » Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:12 pm

Fab wrote:So, at the end, it's only a question of, let me say, declaration.

If I want to charge an enemy in difficult terrain with my troops and I want to take advantage of a group move, I only need to declare that I'm moving as a group because the cost is 3 CPs both if it's a group move and if it's a single stand (or single column) move.
Quite correct.

You might ask "why does it matter, then?" There are a couple of reasons why having that rule (group move through bad going) is important.
  • If no enemy is anywhere near, then the rule is almost unneeded. "Almost" because it is still easier to move as a group if you want to ensure you end as a group without having to "push back" or revert earlier stuff that you moved but then decided they were too far ahead of the rest.
  • If you have some stands in difficult terrain that are in ZOC of the enemy, being able to group move (even at the bigger cost) avoids a huge number of fiddly odd things created by trying to do the same move as single stands. Even very experienced players with legacy systems got trapped (and irritated) by the way things worked there. All fixed with the "group move in difficult terrain" rule.
  • A group move in difficult terrain can force a single enemy stand to conform; a single stand move cannot.
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Fab
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Re: Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

Post by Fab » Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:44 pm

Interesting discussion.

The second bullet in your answer was the most difficult to catch but I think you refer to what is written at page 8 - Design note :"...moving as a group...is advantageous...when aligning to an enemy stand".

If so I got it, thanks

Fab
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David Kuijt
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Re: Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

Post by David Kuijt » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:57 pm

Fab wrote:Interesting discussion.

The second bullet in your answer was the most difficult to catch but I think you refer to what is written at page 8 - Design note :"...moving as a group...is advantageous...when aligning to an enemy stand".

If so I got it, thanks
That's part of it. The details of how movement in difficult terrain, ZOC, and the requirement to have full frontal contact to have combat created some bizarre situations would require some pictures, and none of it is relevant for Triumph anyway, because allowing group moves in difficult terrain (at the same cost as individual or column moves) solves all those oddities.

The simplest such oddity was this -- if you had two stands as a line in the ZOC of a single stand, but you were in difficult terrain and the distance to the enemy single stand was less than the base depth of one of your stands, then you could not attack with either stand unless you pulled the first stand back to create room for the second stand. Which maneuver corresponds to nothing in the real world, where if you spent two command point (equivalents) on it your two stands would just move forward together and smash into the enemy single stand, getting an overlap (equivalent) on the attack.
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Fab
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Re: Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

Post by Fab » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:43 pm

Re-reading the rules I'd like to double check my understanding.

I have a line of 3 Heavy Foot in front of an enemy line, perfectly aligned.

I move the line straight ahead to frontally contact the enemies, but my leftmost stand by going straight ahead, passes through a piece of difficult terrain.

The cost of such a move should be 2 CPs. Am I right ?

Cheers
Fab
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David Kuijt
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Re: Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

Post by David Kuijt » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:14 pm

Fab wrote:Re-reading the rules I'd like to double check my understanding.

I have a line of 3 Heavy Foot in front of an enemy line, perfectly aligned.

I move the line straight ahead to frontally contact the enemies, but my leftmost stand by going straight ahead, passes through a piece of difficult terrain.

The cost of such a move should be 2 CPs. Am I right ?
Exactly.
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Fab
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Re: Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

Post by Fab » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:25 pm

Good.
Thanks

Fab
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Re: Group move in difficult terrain : cost in CP ?

Post by MarkusB » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:04 pm

More of the same!

Let's consider a group of 8 elements in a 4x2 block (i.e. 2 lines of 4 elements each, or equivalently 4 columns of 2 elements each, with front edges aligned and front corner contact). Let's say that the leftmost 4 elements (so, a 2x2 block of 2 columns with 2 elements each) are all warbands; while the rightmost 4 elements (again, a 2x2 block) are rabble (not to imply anythyng bad about them, of course: they're nice people).

Now, I want to move them forward as a group; but in doing so, all the rabble portion of the group will enter difficult terrain (while the warriors will stay in open terrain throughout all the move).

How many CPs does this move cost?

- The rule as written would seem to say eight (and, should you manage to roll eight CPs, I'd like to have a look at your die, if you please);
- The amended rule as clarified here would seem to imply two, because only 2 columns/frontages are entering difficult terrain;
- Or is it just one? In other words: is article 26.2 (rabble- and skirmishers-only group moves don't incur in any CP additional cost) also applicable to mixed groups? The current wording gives me the impression that 26.2 does not apply to mixed groups, but I'd like to check.

BTW, this really happened (yesterday evening)
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