Mounted in Difficult Terrain Tactical Factor - Error?

[skc]

We were wondering during our recent 'playtest' game if there is perhaps an error in the tactical penalty regarding Mounted in Difficult terrain.

Triumph! states
a. Mounted stands receive a -1 close combat
tactical factor when in difficult terrain.
b. Close order foot stands receive a -2 close
combat tactical factor when in difficult

Should it not be the opposite or at least equal? i.e. Mounted also receive the -2 and Close foot -1 (or both -2)? After all a horse is a great big slow clumsy object in trees, undergrowth, steep rocky slopes etc and extremely vulnerable.

Other sets point this way.

DBA
-2 If any troops but Auxilia, Bows, Warband or Psiloi and in close combat in bad (not rough) going.

DBM
-2 If mounted troops who are attacking across fortifications; or in close combat while in or in contact with the front edge of enemy foot who are in, going rough or difficult to the mounted troops.
-1 If (S) or (O) warband in close combat against foot to their front while in rough or difficult going.
-2 If blades in close combat against foot to their front while in rough or difficult going.55
-2 If spears, pikes, (O) or (I) hordes or train in close combat while in rough or difficult going

Le Art De La Geurre (Even worse!)
Mounted Units: -2 in rough terrain, -3 in difficult terrain
Foot Units: Heavy Infantry -2 for all types in difficult terrain.

With Acknowledgement to the Rulesets mentioned.

[David Kuijt]

We were wondering during our recent 'playtest' game if there is perhaps an error in the tactical penalty regarding Mounted in Difficult terrain.

Triumph! states
a. Mounted stands receive a -1 close combat
tactical factor when in difficult terrain.
b. Close order foot stands receive a -2 close
combat tactical factor when in difficult

Should it not be the opposite or at least equal? i.e. Mounted also receive the -2 and Close foot -1 (or both -2)? After all a horse is a great big slow clumsy object in trees, undergrowth, steep rocky slopes etc and extremely vulnerable.

You misread 70.1 in a critical way:

70.1: Close order foot stands receive a -2 combat modifier when in difficult terrain and fighting against any foot.

(emphasis mine)

If the -2 applies to foot and mounted (as in several of the rules systems you cite) then heavy foot want to AVOID fighting mounted in difficult terrain. Which is all wrong -- mounted should want to avoid fighting any foot in difficult terrain. As you say, they are great big clumsy etc..

• With a -2 for close-order foot against open-order foot, the interaction between those stands works.
• With a -1 for mounted in difficult, and the modifiers to combat results that mounted suffer, mounted fighting open-order foot works. Open order foot cannot easily be killed, and are much faster.
• And with NO -2 for close-order foot fighting MOUNTED in difficult terrain, but mounted still get a -1 (and suffering modifiers to combat results and their own slower movement), mounted-vs-close order foot works. Close-order foot are better against mounted in difficult terrain than they are in the open.

To point out just one of the problems with the DBA system -- if you are Cavalry (DBA rating) vs. Blades (DBA rating) then you actually want to fight the foot in difficult terrain. You both suffer a -2, and the odds of you actually killing your foe change from 5.5%. (2 chances in 36) to 16.7% (6 chances in 36). Cavalry vs. Horde is even more damaging. Blades/Horde should never go into bad terrain when Cavalry are around. And it's even worse because of the ring effect -- the way terrain acts in that game system where the modifier applies if your back toe is in the terrain. That creates a circle of death where close-order foot can be crushed by mounted if they are pushed into the terrain. Completely counter-intuitive. (this analysis is based upon DBA of the previous twenty years -- I haven't played DBA 3.0, so I'm not sure how it works). In the past I won DBA tournaments by charging my cavalry over a steep hill to smash into close-order foot who anchored their flank on terrain. The shocked look on my opponent's face was amusing, but that doesn't make the rule sensible in that system -- mounted interactions with close-order foot in bad terrain was broken there.

[Rod]

What DK said

[skc]

David, on a re-read I see "there is method in your (brilliant;) madness." So Close Foot against Mounted don't get the penalty. which I overlooked. I also overlooked the different troop types. (I think my brain has fogged up after years of "Barkerese!") I also wondered about that -2,-2 matchup in DBA and it never really seemed to 'gel.'

Many thanks for clarifying.

[greedo]

I've played DBA 2.2, and DBA 3.0, To The Strongest, Armati, l'Guerre, and a couple of others, but I'm pretty new to Triumph! This is however after only 2 test games so take this for what it's worth.

I've found the best, least confusing way to think about it, is to pretend that I've never heard of DBA. There are mechanical similarities, but there there are some pretty big differences (flanking), and troop reactions, some are similar, but some are very different (the Panic and Evade mechanisms specifically) in addition to the various types of lighter cav, and foot troops.

If I start comparing this to DBA, then I begin to pull rules from that game system into this, and it doesn't work, and becomes very confusing.
But just forgetting about DBA (I'll certainly play it, but Triumph is quickly becoming my favorite), takes some careful reading, but the system seems self consistent, and seems to work. I'll trust the math and play testing on it.

[Rod]

Often is is much harder for me to teach DBA players Triumph! because they think they already know how to play

It is not the same game, and many critical aspects are quite different.

Recently did a demo game where a player questioned why a stand shot at from behind did not "fall back" in other words back up towards the arrow fire? Intuitively it makes no sense to retreat backwards towards the fire, so new players have no issue with the way Triumph! handles fire on the rear of a unit if they have had no DBA experience they don't even question it.

[skc]

Not to worry. I've played much DBA & DBM but have always found issues such as penalties in difficult, the shot at rear fall back, and the turn to face flank attacker rules quite strange. Triumph! changes, now make more sense out of all that!