Hoplites Deep Formation and Epilektoi

[Dekelia]

In the later Hoplites Athens list, the Epilektoi (Elite Foot) are marked with Hoplites Deep Formation but only one is allowed. Is the intent that any troops in the army marked the same way (i.e. the Heavy Foot Hoplites) can support or be supported?

[David Kuijt]

In the later Hoplites Athens list, the Epilektoi (Elite Foot) are marked with Hoplites Deep Formation but only one is allowed. Is the intent that any troops I'm the army marked the same way (i.e. the Heavy Foot Hoplites) can support or be supported?

It took me three readings to understand the question. Line item battle cards apply to all troops of that type (that line). Otherwise it would be necessary to mark clearly on the board which stand can do X, and which can not -- which is really awkward and not in keeping with a fast-play game.

Some battle cards have a cost per stand -- but even with those, you are not allowed to pay only for some, and not for all. If your Knights are capable of dismounting at deployment, you must pay that cost for every Knight you have from that line of the army list -- you can't say "I only want one to have that ability".

There are a few army lists that can create a bit of confusion -- for example, the Carolingian Franks have two different line items for Knights (one for the regular dudes, and one for dudes who are Swabian or Bavarian). The battle cards for each line can be purchased/assigned differently. If you do that, though, you must make the Swabian/Bavarian troops distinct (visually) from the other guys. Naturally enough -- the other way can lead to fistfights when misunderstandings arise in the game.

But you are not allowed to partially buy -- if you choose to use a battle card that applies to troops in a line in the army list, it applies to all the troops in that line.

[David Kuijt]

In the later Hoplites Athens list, the Epilektoi (Elite Foot) are marked with Hoplites Deep Formation but only one is allowed. Is the intent that any troops I'm the army marked the same way (i.e. the Heavy Foot Hoplites) can support or be supported?

And re-reading it again. I'm still not sure what you're asking. My current guess is that you're asking if the Epilektoi can receive or provide support from the regular Hoplites? Depends on how the Battle Card is worded -- I'd have to go look it up. But the fact there is only 1 stand doesn't imply anything by itself -- you could be playing Grand Triumph, and there are lots of examples of Hoppy Deep Forma where the number of troops with that capability could be just 1 stand, depending on army choices.

[Dekelia]

In the later Hoplites Athens list, the Epilektoi (Elite Foot) are marked with Hoplites Deep Formation but only one is allowed. Is the intent that any troops I'm the army marked the same way (i.e. the Heavy Foot Hoplites) can support or be supported?

And re-reading it again. I'm still not sure what you're asking. My current guess is that you're asking if the Epilektoi can receive or provide support from the regular Hoplites?

Yes, sorry for the poorly worded question. I'm asking if the Epilektoi (Elite Foot) can receive and provide support from regular Hoplites (Heavy Foot). They are both marked with "Hoplite Deep Formation".

The wording of the card is:

"Stands marked with this ability in the army lists gain the Rear Support ability per rule 66, as if those stands (only – including other stands of that type not so noted in the army lists) were listed in 66.3. All other parts of rule 66 are still valid."

The part in parenthesis is confusing but I think it is saying only stands of the same type, maybe even only from that entry, can receive and provide support to each other. It isn't clear and since the Epilektoi has a maximum of 1 it further confused it.

So you are saying that the maximum of 1 isn't relevant and that card on Epilektoi could just be for when using larger armies.

I could still use clarification on the parenthetical part of the card wording.

Thanks for the help!

[David Kuijt]

The wording of the card is:

"Stands marked with this ability in the army lists gain the Rear Support ability per rule 66, as if those stands (only – including other stands of that type not so noted in the army lists) were listed in 66.3. All other parts of rule 66 are still valid."

The part in parenthesis is confusing but I think it is saying only stands of the same type, maybe even only from that entry, can receive and provide support to each other. It isn't clear and since the Epilektoi has a maximum of 1 it further confused it.

So you are saying that the maximum of 1 isn't relevant and that card on Epilektoi could just be for when using larger armies.

Yes. And no.

When we were looking at that line, we had a dilemma. We knew the rank and file hoplites were going to get Deep Formation. The choice was whether to also give the single stand of Epilektoi "Deep Formation".

If we said NO, then we'd have people look at the army list and say "why not? The Theban Sacred Band gets Deep Formation, and they are arguably the same sort of thing? Why are you raining in the Epilektoi parade? And what about in Grand Triumph, where they might have two or three stands, and such an ability might be useful?"

If we said YES, then we'd have people look at the army list and say, as you are, "but wait -- there's only 1 stand. That's stupid. What does that mean? That's confusing!"

Screwed either way.

I could still use clarification on the parenthetical part of the card wording.

You and me both, and I was involved in writing it. That's the reason the Battle Cards is in beta test -- so you lot can help us lot identify parts in the rules where we thought we were clear when we wrote it, and now ... maybe it could be improved.

The underlying question is "can the Epilektoi support non-Epilektoi hoplites, or be supported by them". And more generally, "in cases where two different lines for troops in the same army list both have Deep Formations, can they support/beSupported by each other."

There are four such cases in the 650+ army lists (I just looked) -- one Kyreneans and Mercenaries, one each for Thebans, Athenians, and Spartans.

My gut take on it is "No." There is no evidence that the Thebans, Athenians, and Spartans would spread their best troops across the front rank of multiple stands -- and there is significant evidence to the contrary, that they would concentrate their best troops in single formations. And if they wanted to go deep, they'd go deep with the good troops. But I'll have to talk to the others about it. (that's OTHERS, in the sense of the TV show Lost)