Charge

Discussion of the upcoming Battle Card system for TRIUMPH!
Rod
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Charge

Postby Rod » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:29 pm

After talking through some of the different options with DS.... I don't know if DS will post it, but I like the idea of a Charge card for certain troops, i.e. Warriors, Warband for example? The card would give a single element or single group of them a +1 or +2 CF for one time use bonus when played after they moved into contact with the enemy. They have to start more than 2MU away (i.e. they cannot start in ZOC).

We talked about this some time ago, but there is was no memory from turn to turn, we could use a battle card to solve that issue.

This would assume they were slightly less powerful while giving them a "charge bonus"... for initial contact.

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Kontos
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Re: Charge

Postby Kontos » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:59 pm

This is similar to my Inspiring Commander card except yours limits troop types and mine should be limited to certain armies. Either way, this is a powerful card and should be costed accordingly. I would hesitate to adjust base CF solely due to the introduction of this card. As DS stated, we don't want the cards to supercede the core game. We want them to enhance it.

Rod
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Re: Charge

Postby Rod » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:29 pm

Kontos,
this discussion goes back a ways (to the previous forum) and was about the fact that Warriors and Warband can roll over Heavy Foot, Elite Foot, and Pike for example.... Same thing you brought up in the other thread.

So the point was that if the formed foot player cannot break up the steam roller of wild tribesmen and they hit in a 2X3 or 2X4 block they almost always smash through the line. Still might not win the battle, but it is pretty ugly and if they get some initial victories, it usually gets uglier.

One suggestion to balance them was a first round combat bonus, which does not work well because the game has no "memory" from turn to turn and this would complicate the rules.

However a battle card would allow this feature without added mechanics. So one solution to the potentially overpowered warrior and warband might be to tone them down slightly on combat factor or rear support, but give them the option to have a battle card which is playable on their "initial charge" into combat from outside of 2MU with a + to their combat factor. This makes them deadly on the first round of their charge, but less deadly if they don't break the enemy on that initial charge.

Use the point system to balance the card and troop costs, but this gives an additional dial to turn to get the right mix.

This came up in a conversation with DS and I think it is a very good idea, it can also be limited to appropriately "wild" or ferocious armies... So for example the less tame Gauls would have this option, but maybe the more domesticated tribes do not?

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Kontos
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Re: Charge

Postby Kontos » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:42 pm

I understand there is no memory in the game and that causes some design roadblocks, however; DK did explain elsewhere that the battle turn was to represent a series of "charges", reforms and the like. If Warband and like types are the issue, I would prefer to elevate the system in lieu of a card "fix". Would only allowing their shatter ability play out on the combat turn they moved into contact be a simpler fix? With the few elements in this game remembering which stands did it shouldn't tax our remaining brain cells. No CF manipulation. Just a thought.

Rod
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Re: Charge

Postby Rod » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:00 pm

Well, I think that takes more work to remember who just moved into contact an who did not this turn once you have a line of troops engaged, i.e. are these the guys that recoiled and I pushed back or was it those? Gets really tough when playing larger GT style battles... and this cannot limit it as easily to specific armies.

Also, DK explained the subsequent charges to me and I understand that. The end result of those charges is sometimes they break through and sometimes they do not as a result of all those charges.

So how do we create that effect in a simple but representative way? In the one stand on one stand encounter, the argument is for Shatter (I think that works well) a series of charges and the formed troops broke. Zoom out a little, In the larger army concept, maybe this Charge Battle card is worth a look for the impact of the entire line of Warriors on initial contact.

Might be worth some experimenting. Played a lot of battles with Romans and Gauls, warriors seemed overpowered to me in these exchanges, but at least the Romans had longer lines and a chance to win on the flank. Pike armies as you pointed out will be in a much tougher spot. I have not played a lot of these yet.

I think it is worth some experimenting at least.

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Kontos
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Re: Charge

Postby Kontos » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:01 pm

Definitely worth playtesting, I agree. Maybe Warband shouldn't get that rear support OR we must not lose sight of the Supporting Bowmen card which gives eligible armies +1 vs Warband, Warriors and mounted. It gets messy unless we look at every combination. I, too, have thoughts, not answers. :D

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David Kuijt
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Re: Charge

Postby David Kuijt » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:03 pm

Rod wrote:Zoom out a little, In the larger army concept, maybe this Charge Battle card is worth a look for the impact of the entire line of Warriors on initial contact.


We have to be careful to avoid mixing scales -- the Charge battle card feels like a skirmish-game thing. With a game where "combat" already simulates every stand fighting in whatever way is most effective for it across 10s of minutes within a single turn, it might not be appropriate.

Rod wrote:Might be worth some experimenting. Played a lot of battles with Romans and Gauls, warriors seemed overpowered to me in these exchanges, but at least the Romans had longer lines and a chance to win on the flank. Pike armies as you pointed out will be in a much tougher spot. I have not played a lot of these yet.

I think it is worth some experimenting at least.


We're putting a bunch of analysis into details of Warrior/Warband right at the moment, so whatever experimentation you are doing right now with this battle card might end up being wasted effort if something ends up changed.

That doesn't mean it is a bad idea; just saying you might want to wait until you see the tweaks we're making before fussing with your own experiments.
DK

Rod
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Re: Charge

Postby Rod » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:33 pm

Won't have time to experiment before Historicon :P

So I will wait for the Warband/Warrior updates.

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Kontos
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Re: Charge

Postby Kontos » Fri Jun 23, 2017 4:39 pm

Rod wrote:Won't have time to experiment before Historicon :P

So I will wait for the Warband/Warrior updates.


And I will wait for my first Triumph! game at HCon! Excited.


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