Proposed 15mm Sumerian Range (by Eureka)

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FanatiChris
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Proposed 15mm Sumerian Range (by Eureka)

Postby FanatiChris » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:31 pm

Nic Robson at Eureka Miniatures is inviting expressions of interest (and pre-orders) in a proposed 15mm Sumerian range, modeled after Eureka’s excellent 28mm range, which you can peruse on-line at: http://eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=87_126_738&sort=3a

Tentative plans call for the 15mm Sumerian range to consist of 9 codes – a Command pack with Gilgamesh, officers and Royal Guards, plus codes for pikemen, axemen, archers, slingers and javelinmen with mixed poses, and codes for Sumerian battlecarts and straddlecarts…plus an option for Akkadian archers. The final list, including any possible additions to the above, will depend on the level of support received. Nic advises advances orders cumulatively totaling approximately 5000 miniatures (estimated at AUD$4000) would be sufficient to launch the project.

Eureka is no longer using its 100/300 Club catalog mechanism to log advance orders, but Nic asks that anyone who is interested contact him directly at nicr (at) eurekamin.com.au

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David Kuijt
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Re: Proposed 15mm Sumerian Range (by Eureka)

Postby David Kuijt » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:19 pm

When I get some time tomorrow or Friday I'll post my estimate of what figures (of the codes Chris mentions) would be necessary for a good Sumerian army -- I need to do that anyway, for myself, as I intend to get in on this. I'm not much impressed with Chariot or Essex Sumerians, and Eureka figs have always been very good for me in the past.
DK

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FanatiChris
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Re: Proposed 15mm Sumerian Range (by Eureka)

Postby FanatiChris » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:50 pm

Nic Robson advises that he's got enough interest to cover 60% of the project and is going to leave the window open until the end of the year. So if you are interested in the proposed range of 15mm Eureka Early (Gilgamesh-period) Sumerians...and haven't already responded...contact Nic to confirm your interest before its too late.

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Re: Proposed 15mm Sumerian Range (by Eureka)

Postby David Kuijt » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:01 pm

For a Gilgamesh Era Sumerian army you need:
  • 1-2 Chariots (4 wheeled battle cars)
  • 0-2 Raiders (household axemen -- only for the army of Kish)
  • 1 Bow Levy (household bowmen)
  • 8-13 Pike
  • 1-2 Rabble (Nomad javelinmen)
  • 1-6 Skirmishers (Nomad slingers and skirmishing bowmen

That's 6 packs of Pikemen (assuming 8 per pack), one pack of axemen, one pack of javelinmen, one pack of slingers (or less), two packs of archers, two battle carts, and a few generals.
DK

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Re: Proposed 15mm Sumerian Range (by Eureka)

Postby Andreas Johansson » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:21 am

Is, BTW, Chariots the appropriate classification for Sumerian battle-carts? The troop definitions suggest that javelin-chucking chariots should be Battle Taxis.

(I'm incidentally somewhat puzzled that javelins should make you BT but a lance make you Ch: Surely the latter is even more short-ranged.)

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Re: Proposed 15mm Sumerian Range (by Eureka)

Postby David Kuijt » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:01 pm

Andreas Johansson wrote:Is, BTW, Chariots the appropriate classification for Sumerian battle-carts? The troop definitions suggest that javelin-chucking chariots should be Battle Taxis.

(I'm incidentally somewhat puzzled that javelins should make you BT but a lance make you Ch: Surely the latter is even more short-ranged.)


There are two cases where we made the decision to rate a vehicle with a long lance as Chariots -- Sumerians and Dendra-armor Mycenaeans. In neither case are we perfectly happy with the decision, but it seemed better than the alternative. I'll give you a short precis of the justification for the Dendra-armor Mycenaeans; the same logic applies to the Sumerians with less data (meaning that we have far less data about how the Sumerians might have fought, so more guessing is involved).

So with the Mycenaeans we have the following situation.
  • Earlier, Dendra-armored chariot dudes (abbreviated hereafter as Dendras) fought with very long lances in very serious armor; the Dendra panoply was clearly awkward and would have made the user hard to maneuver on foot. Which means, not inspired to jump down and fight, and would have great difficulty making an agile escape from foot enemy that were pressing the noble fighter hard. (Very difficult to exhibit Battle Taxi behavior)
  • Later Mycenaeans (abbreviated hereafter as Laters) on chariots fought in lighter armor with javelins, and are attested (through Homer at least) as fighting in the defined Battle Taxi format -- jumping off their chariots, fighting a bit, and jumping back on.
  • The Laters are exactly the Battle Taxi troop type. Same as lots of other examples. But what shall we make the Dendras?
  • After some debate we decided to make the Dendras the more dangerous (to their enemies) more valuable type. While the arguments for giving them a bigger impact on their foes (i.e., shattering foot) aren't strong, the arguments for giving them the same impact on their foes as the other style aren't strong either, and the decision has the minor benefit of making those troop types "feel" different (play differently on the table) from the Laters they were replaced by.
  • The main question that we weren't particularly happy with the answer of, was this: how did the Dendras fight against other troops rated as Chariots? And the reason we weren't happy was that we have no evidence either way. The Dendra panoply was a part of the Palace Culture of the Minoan/Mycenaeans, and were island-based and relatively insular (war-wise) and didn't fight against the Mitanni or Egyptians in the period where we have some confidence the Dendra was used. If there were any battle reports of how Dendras fought against Mitanni/Egyptian chariots, we haven't seen them.
  • Same is true even worse for the primitive Battle Cars of the Sumerians -- no data, and never fought against anything else that had horses. So without data we focused on how they would have worked against the massed foot of their period, and we decided that making them shatter such foot (especially Pike) would make them valuable and scary-to-the-foe, which seems (based, again, on almost nothing) the appropriate situation historically.

Hope this helps explain the choice we made. If new evidence comes to light to support a different choice in the future, we might revisit the issue (since no rebasing is required).
DK

Andreas Johansson
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Re: Proposed 15mm Sumerian Range (by Eureka)

Postby Andreas Johansson » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:59 pm

Thanks. :)

I'll query, tho, if Sumerian war-carts did have long lances. Acc'd Hamblin's Warfare in the Ancient Near East to 1600 BC the attested weapons are javelins and axes, and that agrees with what I recall seeing in reliefs. Do you have any that Hamblin overlooked, or are you interpreting them differently?

(I note that the troop type definitions list "some Chinese armies" as a 3rd example of long lance users classed as Chariots - or rather a 2nd as Sumerians aren't there mentioned. I have no idea if that's accurate or not but I can't help but notice they're not among your two cases here.)

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Re: Proposed 15mm Sumerian Range (by Eureka)

Postby David Kuijt » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:05 pm

Andreas Johansson wrote:(I note that the troop type definitions list "some Chinese armies" as a 3rd example of long lance users classed as Chariots - or rather a 2nd as Sumerians aren't there mentioned. I have no idea if that's accurate or not but I can't help but notice they're not among your two cases here.)


IIRC, some Warring States chariots involved one of the crew members equipped with a very long dagger-axe. The Warring States chariots are not attested as exhibiting BT like behaviors in any way -- no dismount/remount/skirmishing. So the same dilemma exists for them as for the Dendras.
DK


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