Bohemimiens

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vodnik
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Bohemimiens

Postby vodnik » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:12 am

...are there any evidence for Pecheneg allies in a Bohemien army?
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David Kuijt
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Re: Bohemimiens

Postby David Kuijt » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:10 pm

vodnik wrote:...are there any evidence for Pecheneg allies in a Bohemien army?


Bohemian Slav here might not be a perfect name for this group, as it includes Moravians and Corinthians. We tend to try to choose names that give a cultural reference, rather than names like "Central Slav" which doesn't really tell you something unless you know the geographic extent of the Slavs at that point in time.

Looking at it now I'm thinking that by naming it "Bohemian Slav" we were getting too specific; we might need to rename it "Bohemian and Central Slav" or something similar.
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Re: Bohemimiens

Postby vodnik » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:12 pm

OK, but the name Bohemien Slav means a member of the frankish empire later holy roman empire. In about 1000 AD the Bohemiens were under the polish Krown but for 3 years only.
Central Slavs could be a better name. Most of these triber were living in todays Germany & Austria. But you could name that Slavs as Obotrites & Wilzians. In the Wikipedia is the Name Veneti but thet means protoPolish people...
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Re: Bohemimiens

Postby David Kuijt » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:23 pm

vodnik wrote:OK, but the name Bohemien Slav means a member of the frankish empire later holy roman empire. In about 1000 AD the Bohemiens were under the polish Krown but for 3 years only.
Central Slavs could be a better name. Most of these triber were living in todays Germany & Austria. But you could name that Slavs as Obotrites & Wilzians. In the Wikipedia is the Name Veneti but thet means protoPolish people...


Bohemia is also a name for the region, regardless of temporary political sovereignty. And "Central" Slavs has other problems -- central to where? The group we are attempting to describe doesn't extend past the Carpathians, which doesn't really make them "Central" if you consider the Slavs who make up the basis for the Rus (the Scandinavian nobility being a very small proportion of their population).

Veneti is also the name of a Gallic tribe known for its naval forces, living in what is now Brittany, so that definitely doesn't work.
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Re: Bohemimiens

Postby vodnik » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:11 pm

...for us in Europe the Acw was a conflict of north against south... The eastern Slavs and the Rus were living in eastern Slav teritory but not in central Europe. The problem with the Veneti is an englisch misintrepretation that people are called: Vilzians.
Finaly; in Europe, Bohemia means the country where Czechs ale living. Try the french translstion of Bohemia...
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Re: Bohemimiens

Postby kdrake5 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:42 am

vodnik wrote:...are there any evidence for Pecheneg allies in a Bohemien army?


I would guess that since the Pechenegs were pushed into/invaded the lands of the Magyars in the 9th century, and the Magyars in turn invaded and raided Great Moravia (which, thanks to David's clarification, this Bohemian Slav list must represent), that the two sides may have at some point come together to fight their common enemy.

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Re: Bohemimiens

Postby Andreas Johansson » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:31 am

David Kuijt wrote:Bohemian Slav here might not be a perfect name for this group, as it includes Moravians and Corinthians.

Carinthians, I assume :)


I don't think "Central Slav" is very felicitous; these are mainly peoples on the western margin of the Slavic world. Unfortunately, "Western Slav" may not be very good either, because linguistically that excludes the Carinthians but includes the Poles (and Sorbs and Polabians).

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Re: Bohemimiens

Postby David Kuijt » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:08 am

Andreas Johansson wrote:
David Kuijt wrote:Bohemian Slav here might not be a perfect name for this group, as it includes Moravians and Corinthians.

Carinthians, I assume :)


Right, them. ;)

Andreas Johansson wrote:I don't think "Central Slav" is very felicitous; these are mainly peoples on the western margin of the Slavic world. Unfortunately, "Western Slav" may not be very good either, because linguistically that excludes the Carinthians but includes the Poles (and Sorbs and Polabians).


The problem in a nutshell. "Central Slav" is only true if you look at the North-South axis of the western margin, and start excluding large portions of the Slavic sphere that are definitely Slavic but not called "Slav". Definitely not central in a 2-dimensional sense. So that isn't good either. And I've never liked Western Slav [edit: the name, not the people! ;) ].
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Re: Bohemimiens

Postby vodnik » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:46 pm

kdrake5@: The Pechenegs drove the Magiars into present days hungary. Tha Pechegs were nearly destroyed by a Byzantine-Bulgar-Kuman coalition in 1091. Surviving people migratet to Hungary & Transylvania.

Andreas Johansson@: The Wikipadia distinguish between; western, eastern & south Slavs. Why not use this expresion? Carantanie was absorbed by the very late 9th centuary by the Bavarians.

David Kuijt@: ...and I've never liked Amerikans :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Bohemimiens

Postby Andreas Johansson » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:05 pm

vodnik wrote:Andreas Johansson@: The Wikipadia distinguish between; western, eastern & south Slavs. Why not use this expresion?

Because they don't map to the distinctions made in the Triumph! lists. The "Bohemian" list, acc'd David above, includes the Bohemians and Moravians (West Slavs) and the Carinthians (aka Carantanians; South Slavs), while excluding other West and South Slavs.

(There's an school of thought that Great Moravia was centred not in modern Moravia but in today's Serbia, in which case their ruling stratum would, I guess, have been South Slavic. But in either case the list covers both West and South Slavs.)


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