Camels

A place to talk about MESHWESH army lists
Andreas Johansson
Squire
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:40 pm

Re: Camels

Postby Andreas Johansson » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:39 pm

David Kuijt wrote:One critical aspect of the historical record was this -- in all cases except Tuaregs, armies that had a chance to switch from Camels to Horses as they got more wealthy and more successful, all did so.

Was switching to horses ever a realistic option for Tuaregs? Keeping them in the central Sahara can't be easy, and while Tuareg forces often intervened both in the Sudan and the Maghreb, I don't recall there ever being any based there on a more-or-less permanent basis. Switching riding animal in the middle of a campaign is unlikely to be a good idea even if the new one is better, because the men will be unused to it.

One use of camels that David didn't mention is Cyrus' supposed stratagem of mounting his cavalry on baggage camels to discomfit Lydian cavalry. Presumably another battle card if it's to be represented.

At the very tail end of the period, there's also the use of camels to carry very light artillery. Mounted Artillery? Or ignore as completely marginal.

User avatar
David Kuijt
Grand Master WGC
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: MD suburbs of Washington DC

Re: Camels

Postby David Kuijt » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:21 am

Andreas Johansson wrote:Was switching to horses ever a realistic option for Tuaregs? Keeping them in the central Sahara can't be easy, and while Tuareg forces often intervened both in the Sudan and the Maghreb, I don't recall there ever being any based there on a more-or-less permanent basis. Switching riding animal in the middle of a campaign is unlikely to be a good idea even if the new one is better, because the men will be unused to it.


Right. One reason they've got an invasion of 4 is their historical record of intervention, and the disinclination of anyone to come visiting them with evil intent (because they didn't have anything worth taking, especially their land). Regardless, your point is good -- the Tuaregs had exc ellent reason not to switch as long as they were based in the central Sahara.

Andreas Johansson wrote:One use of camels that David didn't mention is Cyrus' supposed stratagem of mounting his cavalry on baggage camels to discomfit Lydian cavalry. Presumably another battle card if it's to be represented.


Don't remember off-hand if we represent that -- it is one of the less bizarre of the "supposed Cyrus strategem" set -- but if so, it would be easily represented by the usual Bad Horse with regular Camel battle card (giving +1 v. Knight or Cataphracts) since the Lydian cavalry are Knights, IIRC.

Andreas Johansson wrote:At the very tail end of the period, there's also the use of camels to carry very light artillery. Mounted Artillery? Or ignore as completely marginal.


Do you have a date and nation-set? I don't recall that. My only memory of that sort of thing is Colonial period, way beyond even any possible expansion into Renaissance.
DK

Andreas Johansson
Squire
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:40 pm

Re: Camels

Postby Andreas Johansson » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:17 am

David Kuijt wrote:
Andreas Johansson wrote:One use of camels that David didn't mention is Cyrus' supposed stratagem of mounting his cavalry on baggage camels to discomfit Lydian cavalry. Presumably another battle card if it's to be represented.


Don't remember off-hand if we represent that -- it is one of the less bizarre of the "supposed Cyrus strategem" set -- but if so, it would be easily represented by the usual Bad Horse with regular Camel battle card (giving +1 v. Knight or Cataphracts) since the Lydian cavalry are Knights, IIRC.

It's also the best-attested of the set, being mentioned in Herodotus.
Andreas Johansson wrote:At the very tail end of the period, there's also the use of camels to carry very light artillery. Mounted Artillery? Or ignore as completely marginal.


Do you have a date and nation-set? I don't recall that. My only memory of that sort of thing is Colonial period, way beyond even any possible expansion into Renaissance.

I'm not sure quite where you consider the date cut-off to be for Triumph, but quite a few lists continue into the 16th century, which IIUC is the invention time frame for camel-guns. The Intertoobz are not very helpful ATM, but WP (uncitedly) credits Humayun (reigned 1530-40 and 1555-56) with them and the DBR lists allow them to Moghuls and Safavids from 1557 and 1591 respectively.

User avatar
David Kuijt
Grand Master WGC
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:44 pm
Location: MD suburbs of Washington DC

Re: Camels

Postby David Kuijt » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:27 pm

Andreas Johansson wrote:I'm not sure quite where you consider the date cut-off to be for Triumph, but quite a few lists continue into the 16th century, which IIUC is the invention time frame for camel-guns. The Intertoobz are not very helpful ATM, but WP (uncitedly) credits Humayun (reigned 1530-40 and 1555-56) with them and the DBR lists allow them to Moghuls and Safavids from 1557 and 1591 respectively.


Solidly Renaissance, then.

One of our collective strongly desires to support a Renaissance (Pike and Shot period) Triumph, but there has been no work done on it so far, and Fantasy Triumph is ahead of it on the queue. If it happens, it would be several years away.
DK


Return to “Army List Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest