No Supporting Missile Troops

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Snowcat
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No Supporting Missile Troops

Postby Snowcat » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:51 am

There doesn't appear to be any provision for supporting missile troops in the rules.

e.g. archers behind main body of spearmen (Assyrians, etc)

Why not?

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David Kuijt
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Re: No Supporting Missile Troops

Postby David Kuijt » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:11 am

Snowcat wrote:There doesn't appear to be any provision for supporting missile troops in the rules.

e.g. archers behind main body of spearmen (Assyrians, etc)


That's a battle card. It is only allowed to certain armies (like Assyrians), not to just anyone who has some "Psiloi" (using the name some legacy systems use for troops allowed to be supporting missile troops for spearmen etc.). So the Assyrians can do it, but the Marian Romans cannot. Why? Because they didn't. And the Maghrebi foot in the Fatimid army can do it, but the Zanj foot in the same army cannot.

We've tested the "Skirmish Screen" battle card rules already pretty well; we used them in appropriate armies at Historicon and Fall In.

Note that this is a completely different thing from massed archers supported by a front hard candy shell of spearmen, which is represented as a Pavise stand. Such troops are used by the Italian Communal and Condotta armies, by several successful Byzantine armies, by post-Assyrian Neo-Babylonian and their Early Achaemenid successors, by many Chinese armies, and so on.
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Re: No Supporting Missile Troops

Postby Snowcat » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:16 am

OK, which begs the next question: Battle cards...?

(Ah, just found the section on the forum about this.)

This sounds like a screen out in front, protecting the better troops while they advance. What about in support from behind, shooting overhead? And re the latter (if included), how would a supporting line work? Anything like the old 1 Ps behind 3 'something else' system? I'm guessing it's screen in front only, however.

Presumably, if the Assyrians have this skirmish screen, we're not talking about just Neo-Assyrians? My understanding is that Middle Assyrian Asharittu elite foot (Raiders in Triumph!) used much the same supported fire/screen as Neo-Assyrian equivalents (Elite Foot and Spear in Triumph!).

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Re: No Supporting Missile Troops

Postby David Kuijt » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:46 pm

Snowcat wrote:This sounds like a screen out in front, protecting the better troops while they advance. What about in support from behind, shooting overhead? And re the latter (if included), how would a supporting line work? Anything like the old 1 Ps behind 3 'something else' system? I'm guessing it's screen in front only, however.


In front or right behind works the same in practice; the phrase "skirmish screen" had nice alliteration, so that's the name that designates both systems.

The way it works is that you must either do skirmish screen on all such protected troops or on none of them. If you choose the screen, it costs 1 pt per such stand. If you choose not to screen, you may use those points to create skirmisher stands (every 3 pts gets you one such stand; leftover points lost) subject to the usual army list constraints (can't violate the army list numbers this way, or ever). The choice (screen or not) lasts the whole game, so in essence this is a decision made at deployment -- whether you are going to use your skirmisher stands as independent stands of skirmishers, or whether you are going to split them up and attach them to individual stands as skirmish screens.

The math of this isn't that much different from the old 1 Ps behind 3 "something elses", but this avoids a number of oddities from that legacy-system representation, most especially the fact that you can instantly convert from a single stand of Ps into a line of skirmishers/supporting archers and back again.


Snowcat wrote:Presumably, if the Assyrians have this skirmish screen, we're not talking about just Neo-Assyrians? My understanding is that Middle Assyrian Asharittu elite foot (Raiders in Triumph!) used much the same supported fire/screen as Neo-Assyrian equivalents (Elite Foot and Spear in Triumph!).


Middle Assyrian Ashsharitu or huradu elite infantry (the raiders) get Skirmish Screen; the militia or vassal spearmen (Hupshu peasant militia Light Foot) also get Skirmish Screen.

In theory the skirmishers used to create the screen for the Ashsharitu raiders should be the Ashsharitu skirmishers, and the skirmishers used to create the screen for the Hupshu light foot should be the Hupshu skirmishers, but that's an artistic choice and we don't want to bother legislating that sort of thing in the army lists.

So if you took:
  • 4x Chariot
  • 3x Raider (Ashsharitu)
  • 1x Skirmisher (Ashsharitu)
  • 3x Light Foot (Hupshu)
  • 1x Skirmisher (Hupshu)
  • 1x Skirmisher (either type) or Bad Horse (Pethalle; if you are 889 BC through 745 BC)
  • 1x Bow Levy or Horde

That would be 48 pts and would allow you to choose at deployment whether to use your Skirmishers independently or to attach them to your Hupshu and Ashsharitu as described in the Battle Card "Skirmish Screen."

Other choices are possible, of course. Reduce the Chariot by one and add two more Bow Levy, to get a flank group to hold against Kimmerian horsebow, perhaps.
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Re: No Supporting Missile Troops

Postby Snowcat » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:41 pm

OK, I think I understand all that. Thanks for the detailed explanation. :)

So what is the actual benefit of the 'skirmish screen' in play? i.e. precisely what benefit does it confer?

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David Kuijt
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Re: No Supporting Missile Troops

Postby David Kuijt » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:31 am

Snowcat wrote:So what is the actual benefit of the 'skirmish screen' in play? i.e. precisely what benefit does it confer?


+1 in close combat against all mounted, and against warband and warrior, IIRC.
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Re: No Supporting Missile Troops

Postby Snowcat » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:44 am

OK, cool. Thanks.

Here's another combo that I think would work well for the Mid Assyrians:

4 x Chariots 16
3 x Raiders 12
1 x Skirmisher 3
4 x Levy Bow 8
2 x Light Foot 6
1 x Skirmisher 3
15 stands 48pts

The Skirmisher with the Light Foot would probably stay a Skirmisher.

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David Kuijt
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Re: No Supporting Missile Troops

Postby David Kuijt » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:49 am

Snowcat wrote:OK, cool. Thanks.

Here's another combo that I think would work well for the Mid Assyrians:

4 x Chariots 16
3 x Raiders 12
1 x Skirmisher 3
4 x Levy Bow 8
2 x Light Foot 6
1 x Skirmisher 3
15 stands 48pts

The Skirmisher with the Light Foot would probably stay a Skirmisher.


That looks good to me too.

I've got a Mid Assyrian army unpainted -- I should paint it up.
DK

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Re: No Supporting Missile Troops

Postby Snowcat » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:10 am

I'll be placing an order for them shortly. The bulk from Essex, because they got most things correct re chariots and clothing/equipment. However, I plan to replace the chariot horses with Old Glory's Assyrian chariot horses because they're really nicely animated, and see if I can also replace the long diamond shaped whatsit that connects from the chariot cab to the yoke with the Old Glory one as the latter bears proper sculpted decoration. Then of course will be the joy of adding a proper whip for each driver and reins for each chariot.

Not touching the 3-horse chariot option for Ashurnasirpal II though, as I simply don't believe it existed.

Thanks for all your replies - you've helped my understanding of the Triumph! system design immensely, and the Mid Assyrians have consequently made it to the shopping list. 8-)

Cheers

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Re: No Supporting Missile Troops

Postby DRutt » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:10 pm

Are the battle cards going to be available or are they already out there somewhere that I am not seeing?


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